Oct 17 - 46/45 - McCain +01
Andonstop's 2 cents
The Chief Source staff is encouraging readers to submit a post on any topic they choose between May 1st and Independence Day, at which point a winner will be crowned based on staff vote and your comments. The following is submission #7 from Andonstop:
"Robert, you once recommended I read Letter to a Christian Nation. Finally got around to doing that. Enjoyed it. Had a good chuckle about the discourse on evolution and God's apparent fondness for beetles and viruses. Thank you for the recommendation.
Sam's motives are unmistakably admirable, but it seems to me a book written similarly about a rose bush would go into great detail about the thorns, how many people they had hurt and how dangerous they could be; then grudgingly and in passing admit that the thorn bush occasionally has a rose; then declare that all thorn bushes should be eliminated because we could still have flowers without them.
Regarding God's omniscience and omnipotence, I believe Sam needs to consider that if one does not limit oneself to thinking things must be fair within each short human life, the temporal imbalances of mortal life within the holistic potentialities of eternal life begin to make sense. If one thinks of a human life as an "at bat" in an inning in a game in a season in a career in a well-balanced life, striking out isn't devastating and a home run isn't glorious. It is in our spiritual nature to seek challenges if they don't already exist. Courage comes only as a result of hardship; altruism comes only as a result of social inequality; loyalty is only possible in the face of betrayal. If mortal death is not the end, then every mortal experience for the faithful contributes to a growing perception of divine and eternal values.
In his quest to free humanity from spiritual bondage, Sam does not distinguish between beliefs and faith. I understand them to be different. Belief (doctrine) is a form of spiritual bondage, while faith is expanding and releasing. Belief fixates, faith liberates. Beliefs separate us, faith unites us. Doctrine is man made, faith is Godly. I agree that too many religionists and non-religionists equate unquestioned, unreasonable doctrine with faith. Real religion -- true faith -- exists on a much higher level; it is much more than a series of beliefs, it is a manner of being, a way of living, independent of doctrine. And it welcomes being challenged, knowing that challenge is a important method of determining what is true.
It is, after all, not what one knows which determines one's actions, it is one's faith. "Human things must be known in order to be loved; divine things must be loved in order to be known." There are some things which can only be known through faith -- real faith, not just beliefs. I detect from Sam's earnest desire to help humanity that he senses some of that..."
"Robert, you once recommended I read Letter to a Christian Nation. Finally got around to doing that. Enjoyed it. Had a good chuckle about the discourse on evolution and God's apparent fondness for beetles and viruses. Thank you for the recommendation.
Sam's motives are unmistakably admirable, but it seems to me a book written similarly about a rose bush would go into great detail about the thorns, how many people they had hurt and how dangerous they could be; then grudgingly and in passing admit that the thorn bush occasionally has a rose; then declare that all thorn bushes should be eliminated because we could still have flowers without them.
Regarding God's omniscience and omnipotence, I believe Sam needs to consider that if one does not limit oneself to thinking things must be fair within each short human life, the temporal imbalances of mortal life within the holistic potentialities of eternal life begin to make sense. If one thinks of a human life as an "at bat" in an inning in a game in a season in a career in a well-balanced life, striking out isn't devastating and a home run isn't glorious. It is in our spiritual nature to seek challenges if they don't already exist. Courage comes only as a result of hardship; altruism comes only as a result of social inequality; loyalty is only possible in the face of betrayal. If mortal death is not the end, then every mortal experience for the faithful contributes to a growing perception of divine and eternal values.In his quest to free humanity from spiritual bondage, Sam does not distinguish between beliefs and faith. I understand them to be different. Belief (doctrine) is a form of spiritual bondage, while faith is expanding and releasing. Belief fixates, faith liberates. Beliefs separate us, faith unites us. Doctrine is man made, faith is Godly. I agree that too many religionists and non-religionists equate unquestioned, unreasonable doctrine with faith. Real religion -- true faith -- exists on a much higher level; it is much more than a series of beliefs, it is a manner of being, a way of living, independent of doctrine. And it welcomes being challenged, knowing that challenge is a important method of determining what is true.
It is, after all, not what one knows which determines one's actions, it is one's faith. "Human things must be known in order to be loved; divine things must be loved in order to be known." There are some things which can only be known through faith -- real faith, not just beliefs. I detect from Sam's earnest desire to help humanity that he senses some of that..."
CONTINUED IN COMMENTS
By Robert - 5/31/2007
24 Comments:
POST CONTINUED:
"I think we can agree all things are evolutionary; so is religion. I see science as an important tool for excising from religious doctrine that which is untrue. Because traditional organized religion has not kept pace with the rest of society and has become untenable is no reason to reject religion itself. The real challenge should be to recognize divisive doctrine as the evolutionary stage it represents and celebrate the commonality of spirituality shared by all people.
Sam states on page 90 that there is "nothing more natural than rape", claiming that it, like religion, was at one time necessary and is now not needed. Please consider that rape compares only to the fear-based and imposed pseudo "religions" of fundamentalist extremism. Religion in general compares more completely to sex in general; it has always been with us, it will always be with us; to some it is a casual social thing; to some it is a means to an end; to others it is a completing part of a deeply committed relationship; some choose not to participate. I think we would agree that not to participate is not to live life to its fullest.
Sam argues prudently on page 27 that abstinence cannot be the complete solution in regards to sex, why then would he think abstinence from faith could be the complete solution to religion? This is linear thinking in a non-linear world. Sam would be much wiser to realize he self-limits his concept of God to that of the organized religious doctrines which he attempts to condemn."
Note: This post was originally a comment left at my bio page. I really enjoyed it and wanted to make sure that it wasn't overlooked. I hope that whoever Andonstop is, that he/she is OK with my moving it to the main page.
There's a lot of articulate yet nebulous blue sky here. With precious little statements of belief and dogma, there's not much to chew on. Religion
may have "always been with us" but why ? To explain lightning and thunder... the rise and fall of the sun, trichinosis? Things that religion couldn't explain but science eventually could ?
During the time of the Black Death, people gathered in churches because their faith told them god had an answer. What they found was way to spread the disease in a much more efficient manner. There are dozens of examples where faith has lead the faithful over a cliff and countless cookouts of the unfaithful. You can argue the semantics of belief vs, faith if you'd like but to those tied to a stake, I doubt that made much difference.
Because religion has failed the author in some ways, they're now left with faith. I'm just not left with any kind of feeling that they've explained what that is and what it means to them.
Andonstop,
Thanks again for the post. I have several points I'd like to address, which will undoubtedly trickle out over the course of the day. For starters, you made the statement:
"If one thinks of a human life as an "at bat" in an inning in a game in a season in a career in a well-balanced life, striking out isn't devastating and a home run isn't glorious."
The problem is that the people that Mr. Harris is addressing in his open letter, by definition, do not think of a human life as one of many "at bats." If they're good Christians, they believe that after one single swing here on earth that they will end up in Heaven or Hell for all eternity. And there can be no doubt who Harris is talking to in this book. I mean the title is Letter to a Christian Nation not Letter to a Faithful World.
So Harris' criticism about an omniscient and omnipotent God who oversees the suffering of so many is a valid one. The "many at-bats" argument is fine, but it doesn't fit with Christian doctrine which means it is not an acceptable Christian defense. I have nothing against this type of Eastern philosophy of reincarnation/karma, or your point that it may explain "why bad things happen to good people." However, it isn't a fair criticism to level at this author who's target (those who subscribe to the Judeo-Christian faith) is clearly indicated.
On a lighter note, I remember watching the movie Legend when it came out. When that devil (the most bad-ass Devil in movie history) gets killed at the end he goes off on this tirade about light needing dark and good needing bad...about everything being relative. This word "relativity" has been on my mind ever since.
Favorite line from the movie:
Princess Lily: You are nothing but an animal!
The Lord of Darkness: [laughs] We are all animals m'lady.
Or..... "Just as every cop's a criminal, and all the sinners' saints, as heads is tails call me Lucifer, because I'm in need of some restraint'.
Andonstop,
If I didn't say so yet: I really like your religion/sex parallel.
God, the eternal woody.
I was hoping, time permitting, to reread Letter to a Christian Nation today (it's very, very short.) Not sure if that's gonna happen, but I'd like to stop and point out some of the main points in the first 1/3:
Smart move...to start off Harris gets Christians to consider the absurdity of Islam/Koran as opposed to laying directly into Christianity. This is a great tactic with the faithful. Then he shows how slavery is condoned throughout the Bible (from the mouth of God, Himself), and takes a closer look at the Ten Commandments. He prefaces the section with:
"[The Ten commandments] are, after all, the only passage in the Bible so profound that the creator of the universe felt the need to physically write them himself--and in stone. As such, one would expect these to be the greatest lines ever written, on any subject in any language..."
Then he jokes about the absurdity of the obsolete, last Commandment. Thou shall not covet your neighbor's ass or manservant. His conclusion here is: How in the world can we call this book a moral compass? It has some plagiarized good parts (golden rule) mixed with some really sick shit. As he says:
"If we take Jesus in half moods, we can easily justify the actions of...Martin Luther King Jr. Taking the other half we can justify the Inquisition."
He also questions how much the church really cares about alleviating human suffering. He discusses their focus on abortion over genocide. I've been thinking the same think ever since the Religious Right started driving home this "Culture of Life" slogan. While they're getting all high and mighty on us about euthanasia and abortion, they're supporting capital punishment and uh...War!?!
"Say what you will about the Ten Commandments, you must always come back to the pleasant fact that there are only ten of them".
HLM
I've not read the book so I can't comment (is it applicable to non-Christians?) I would however, like to say that there are more than ten commandments. One that I think many Republicans should be reminded of is "Do not mistreat an alien or oppress him, for you were aliens in Egypt."
Chandra,
This book is a good read for anyone.
You can easily read it in one or two sittings (it's really like 60 normal-sized pages) and it's a good overview of the anti-theist position that guys like Dawkins often spend hundreds of pages explaining.
Many non-Christians will find a few points that'll come in handy in their next bout with a Bible Banger.
Robert, as to you moving my comment to the main page, I am honored. I appreciate your thoughts, and I'm glad you liked the religion/sex parallel.
I understand your thinking that the "at bat" analogy is not an acceptable Christian defense. Please consider that from my point of view, your position is self-limitingly based on traditional Christian doctrine. If Christianity is defined as faith in the true teachings of Jesus, then "at bat" works as a crude approximation of the relative scale of human life to eternal spirit life. No real description of life after mortal life is offered in traditional Christian doctrine.
I think it is a fair criticism to say Sam's book attempts to destroy Christianity rather than build on its truths, as I think a true proponent of evolution would. Better to cut back the dead branches of doctrine and allow the healthy roots of faith to give birth to new growth. To me, the Bible is at best a primitive interpretation of divine revelation by a society which understood the earth to be flat and the center of the universe. At worst it is a blatant attempt to promote racial and male superiority. Yet there is much in the Bible which is true even today. There is a good foundation on which to build.
Mencken, you say "Because religion has failed the author in some ways, they're now left with faith." I would say "When reason discards religious doctrine which is untrue, we are left with a truer and more pure kernal of religious faith."
You wish for something to chew on. I'll start with what I believe faith is not: faith is not believing that which reason tells us is not true. I think a common mistake here is people fail to distinguish between what is not true and what may not be true.
To me, faith is more than a way to explain things, it is a manner of living based on trust in the loving fatherhood of God and the subsequent siblinghood of all humankind. What makes us all equal is not our physical beings, for those obviously vary significantly; what makes us equal is our spiritual potential in eternity. Therein lies the common bond and eternal worth of all human life. Faith is about eternal values. Though not predicated on reason, faith is reasonable; though independent of logic, it is nonetheless encouraged by sound logic. In my humble opinion, anything inconsistent with that in any organized religion is manmade doctrine and unworthy of being called religious thinking.
Andonstop,
Look...the problem here is that Harris is attacking modern Christianity. You, in turn, are defending your version of faith.
I have no problem with your version of faith, but it is clearly very different than Christian Doctrine, modern or traditional. For instance, you say:
"Faith is not believing that which reason tells us is not true."
If that was a tenant of the church, Harris might not have needed to write his book in the first place, but the church is still preaching the 'history' of Adam and Eve!!!
On a similar note, you say: "No real description of life after mortal life is offered in traditional Christian doctrine."
Harris is addressing modern Christians in America. Heaven and Hell are without question cornerstones of their concept of their own religious doctrine.
Also, I don't buy this: "...crude approximation of the relative scale of human life to eternal spirit life" stuff, at all.
Remember you were using this "at bat" concept to justify the seemingly shitty/painful existence of individuals here on Earth. You were saying that even though one life in isolation might seem quite crappy that that is only one "at bat" for that (person/soul?).
Like I said, while that may be true, it is simply NOT compatible with the beliefs of modern day Christians, which is who Harris is addressing.
Let's be real. In Christian Doctrine, you have one mortal life and then one eternal life (which is nothing more than an unending super-reward or mega-punishment for your brief flicker here on Earth).
That's like one "at bat" followed by introduction into The Baseball Hall of Fame or being permanently sent back down to some minor league where the uniforms are made of burning embers.
What else is there other than "man-made doctrine" when it comes to religion? What you're putting forth here is man-made, unless you're posting from the ether.
We can agree on the failures of organized religion, but in spite of all your eloquence and sincerity, you've said almost nothing regarding what's beyond
dogma or how you know what you know.
"Posting from the ether."
Classic.
GOD , Guns & Guts:
If there are any Bushies left out there, read this about a 50 year plan for bukku fun fun fun.....daddy should take the T-Bird away
Bush plans 50 year Funfest
I heard Bush calling for "Peace" in Lebanon and the Middle East over Memorial Day.
There's something to really give some thought to: A self proclaimed "WAR PRESIDENT" urging others to try "PEACE"
A guy who brought the secret agenda of the PNAC (War, War, War til daddy takes the T-bird away) into the Whitehouse just as his furniture & luggage.
& now the 50 year "Korean War Model" for Iraq---- maybe what he really wishes is to "occupy" the whole world?
Where did I here this kinda idea before?
Geezuz- Bush supporters - staop & think about this guy for just a moment
This guy (gal?) has quite a mind. Beautifully written, but I can't make out the logic at all. Beautiful prose is no substitute for sound logic, I want to see this authors reasoning layed out so that me and Menck have something to argue with.
I sense that this authors convictions are grounded in emotion. Reason has a much better track record than faith or emotion, ditch the faith, embrace reason and see if it leads you back to your faith. Otherwise, your entire belief structure is circular.
Jeff,
You should pick up this book.
You'd get a kick out of it.
You can read it over two cups of coffee at Barnes and Nobles.
You want 'reason' check out Letter to a Christian Nation.
[chuckling] "Ether." I like that. After all, whence comes our unique and heretofore nonexistent thoughts?
"All your eloquence and sincerity..." "Quite a mind." "Beautifully written." Thank you for the kind comments. The qualities of which you speak are the fruits of doctrine-free religious faith. I humbly submit they are as much a part of reality as science, and why truth is more than just scientific fact.
"I want to see this authors reasoning layed out so that me and Menck have something to argue with." A gentle observation with kind intent: It seems to me y'all are more concerned with finding untruth than with searching for truth. This author's convictions are grounded in faith, Jeff, not in emotion. I know what I know through faith, Mencken. I don't know why you would need more than the final paragraph of my previous post to understand that. Faith does not require doctrine. If we trust in and are loyal to our highest possible concept of God and try to live up to that, that is living faith.
It appears we have different impressions of Sam's book, Robert. To me, he attacks not only Christianity, but also religion in general, God, and even religious tolerance. He demands for instance that everyone accept either everything in the Bible as Godly, or nothing. To me, this is a naive expectation for black or white living in a multicolor world. Such thinking is an example of what I meant earlier about people failing to distinguish between what is not true and what may not be true. There are obviously things in the Bible which are indefensible; there are also things which are indisputably true; and there are things which while they cannot be proven true, are reasonable and cannot be proven false.
The reasonable and intelligent faithful I know accept the limitations of the Bible, seek wisdom from the wisdom, appreciate the metaphorical truth where it exists, and disregard the fluff as fluff. That is an approach I would humbly recommend to Sam. Wouldn't you think it more intelligent to use a ladder to pick the apples than to cut down the apple tree?
I think experience tells us that if we wait, the apples will fall on their own.
Burma Shave
[chuckling] That's the problem with metaphors -- there are so many interpretations. Personally though, I prefer fruit which is not overripe.
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