I was wrong about Sicko
I saw Sicko last night. I thought the movie was going to be about the working class who is caught just above poverty line where they would receive welfare, and earn just low enough to not be able to afford insurance. Spoiler alert! It's about people who have insurance, but whose claims are denied for asinine reasons. One 22-year-old girl had cervical cancer, and was denied treatment because she was "too young" to have cervical cancer. Yeah! She is too young and should be treated.Do you think it's acceptable that you can't choose which hospital you want to go to? If you go to Akron General, but you have Summa insurance, General cannot treat you. You will have to be transported to a Summa hospital. Two years ago, when I was injured, my husband grabbed the phone book as he ran out the door to make sure we were going to the right hospital. That thought shouldn't even have to cross our minds in the greatest country in the world.
Everyone should see this movie. It's a non-partisan issue. Democrats are just as big of failures on this issue as Republican are.
Bring a tissue.
By terra - 6/30/2007
111 Comments:
Terra, your graph bears out the stats I have been hearing repeated over ann over:
The US has 50% +- waste in its HC system.
& I may add that its worse than that- the system should be totalled just like a wrecked 1985 Ford and completely reworked. If the Ins Moguls dont wish to helkp out, cooperate or interdict that- the govt powers should just bully it through.
On the bright side - we have excellent care out there just waiting to be delivered to the needy patient -----IF only all the leeches of waste could become unattached
Nothing will happen until some power (President???) is able to overcome the corruptive wasteful featherbedders and bitch slap them into submission.
Stay tuned in 2009 or later...much later if ever I am afraid to say
FDR - we miss you now, buddy
When are you liberals going to realize nothing matters at all except profit. Sick people are goldmines!
We've worked out the perfect system. We feed people garbage and then when they have health problems we hook them on powerful drugs.
Insurance and the pharmecutical companies race to the bank. The investors reap the reward. This is America you communist bastards. Money money money. Fuck the sick!
Yeah, if only we had FDR, we could prolong our healthcare problems for another decade and a half!
Wow, I didn't know straw men could type.
I love it that unregulated goods and services in every other sector can give americans astonishing value, but when liberals examine our very regulated healthcare industry and see such waste and injustice, they push for more regulation.
Ya'll ever read "I pencil?" It's a really good essay written from the viewpoint of a pencil. The premise is that there isn't a man alive who knows how to make a pencil. I thought that seemed a stupid premise 'till I read the essay, and I must say that it is an incredibly well written argument for capitalism and its "invisible hand."
Just google "I pencil"
Jeff, If I keep repeating:
FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR FDR
Did you have a grand Mal just then?
Jeff, I just read some I pencil- doesnt do me too much good
Not so sure what aspects of regulation you are referring to?
I point you to total unaccountability of ins carriers to any authority ----as they routinely deny, wiggle out of their contract obligations. Its so rampant that who knows what an ins co under contract will pay or what exactly is covered (Philly Lawyers maybe??) & what about the ins companies seeming exemption from 20-30% inflationary rate hikes?
Have you talked to any small business owner these days- they may just tell you that the Ins Cos are running free, roughshod, and wild as hell...You think thats by def "regulated"
& a real flip is the falsetto"regulation"/law enforcement that the drug companies have bought that denies Americans the choice to buy cheaper drugs wherever they choose such as Canada.
Let me ask you this: Do you believe that just as we are able to buy most everything from China, Mexico, Canada- Why should we be barred from buying our prescripions thus?
Well Jeff I made it through enough of "I, Pencil" not to care how it ended. It sounded like my eighth grade civics teacher trying to be clever.
The Romans and Egyptians had pencils that were produced by a brutally simple economy. That it now takes a cast of thousands to make a No. 2 pencil means what again in regards to 45 million Americans not having health insurance unless you mean it ultimately takes 25 people to check my prostate.
Jeff, this movie would make you angry too because it is about people who have insurance and still don't get covered and end up paying for the rest of their lives for things they thought were covered by the insurance they were paying for. Don't you think someone should force the companies to provide the service that its customers are paying for?
Canada isn't the only place with universal health care. England has had it since the '40s. After WWII, even though the country was broke, they made it a priority to take care of every single person. It's a great system. In France, they refer to it as family values. (In the US, family values means anti-gay.)
Canadians have to buy private insurance just to come visit the US, because if they're injured while they're here, they would have to pay for it. If we're injured while we're there, we would be cared for.
Terra, did you ever play ping pong with a ball bearing? (((like arguing with Jeff)))
Menck, that I Pencil read sounded just like Larry (childhood neighbor) who could con anyone-- anywhere. Larry even eventually conned himself--he believed all his lies.
I think I shall now pencil myself in for some racktime.....
Take Care friends and sleep tight
Dude, my dad owns an engineering firm, I talk to him often.
Terra.
Yes, i do think that corporations that fail to live up to their contracts should pay, that is why we have courts.
Petey, I think it would be great if we could buy drugs from canada. Not only would it give us short term access to cheaper meds, it would also force drug companies to make every country pay them for what their products are actually worth.
Menck. You didn't find it the least bit facinating how much goes into something so seemingly simple like a pencil? Did you already know all that shit, or what?
Petey, the health care industry is VERY regulated. Read up:
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-527es.html
(be sure to download the PDF file)
Petey, you didn't even read "I pencil" there is absolutely no "con" going on in that essay. It is pretty much just about how incredibly complex the manufacturing of a pencil is. That's it. Please, tell me where the author tried to con you.
Petey, whenever you argue, no matter who the victim, it seems as if you are playing ping-pong with ball bearings.
You're a cheerleeder sitting on the sidelines of the actual debate.
Menck, don't play dumb, you know damn well I cited I pencil because it is an excellent demonstration of capitalism's invisible hand.
If you want the worlds best healthcare, you had best push it more towards the private sector, rather than the public sector.
If pencils are seemingly to simple, just compare the budgets, and the results of the Human Genome Project. Both the private and public sectors raced to complete the genome first, and guess who won?
Celera did! They beat the gov, even htough the government-run project had over twice the budget and a head start!
It will be even more fun to watch the new privatized rocket and space industry beat the piss out of the incredibly expensive NASA.
It won't be so much fun if certain people on the left get their way, and our drug research and manufacturing becomes government run. Ditto for healthcare in general.
Jeff, I've spent quite a bit of my life not working in, but touring manufacturing plants. I get the complexity... but citing I, Pencil doesn't illuminate much related to healthcare in my opinion.
It would help if you explained the reference. "Capitalism's invisable hand" sounds like the title of a 1950's Socialist Party pamphlet.
Maybe they could hand out copies of it for people to read and discuss during their 4 hour ER wait.
Nobody cares what it takes to make a pencil. Just send one to China, have them do
up a knockoff, shut the plant down
Interesting Pencil Essay:
http://www.howtobuyamerican.com/bamw/bamw-020216-pencil.shtml
I suggest you read Kurt Vonnegut's "A Man Without a Country"
Smooze us over and go see MM's Sicko
I work for a family owned engineering & survey co in Strongsville.....no kids named Jeff in the family....
Yes Jeff, I think even the cheerleaders out here are aware of what it takes to make a pencil...& its great fun to root for guys like Mencken, Robert, Terra,,,,,,,
Hey Bush was a cheerleader
If you remember back we literally whipped the health care horse to death....I learned something thruoghout that diatribe thread:
1.)The Health Care system will NOT right itself from within. Its fiction for you to believe the opposite because the public (HC Consumer) holds no cards (what should we do - boycott our HC and just die?) Govt is in the Ins. lobby's pocket. This is NOT like any other consumer situation- Jeff---
2.) the actual HC at the patients level may be the best in the world, if only the wasteful stranglehold of the carpetbaggers could be broken.
3.)The current waste/corruption is so entrenched that it will probably take an event such as Jesus' return to fix. Areou prepared to face Jesus with your immoral view, my son???
RA RA RA sis CUM BA - laissez-faire in HC Sucks BIGTIME- YA Ya YA
opposite of what , you ponder?
The world's best healthcare is in the private sector? I hope you're kidding. That is an insult to everyone who lost someone because our PRIVATE system rejected them even though they've been paying for insurance and were told they'd be cared for.
I've always enjoyed your perspective, Jeff, but you are absolutely wrong on this issue. We have the worst health care in the Western world because it is run for profit. They have no incentive to pay for people's illnesses. And you think the courts are a good place to settle these things? That's part of the problem with our system. Doctors pay $20,000 or more yearly for malpractice insurance so they're covered in case of a lawsuit. And by the time these people get to court, their loved ones are dead. I hope that is unacceptable to you.
"worst healthcare in the western world"
Terra, that's an absolutely irresponsible statement.
Terra,
Hate the American health care system but dont blame it for you not knowing what hospital you are to go to. How about a little personal responsibility.
Granted an extreme example but one never the less. Currently in Mass. the state has spent over $50,000 fighting an inmate's demand for a sex change operation paid for of course by the taxpayers. In your utopia what does the system pay for and who decides, the legal system?
Terra,
How aboutthe name of that malpractice lawyer. The doctors I know would love to get such cheap rates.
I had tea with a Parliament aide in the British Columbia dining room a few yrs back (Parliament was on recess and the skeleton crew was extremely hospitible ...so we discussed the HC situation:
In Canada, the Queen decreed by her absolute power that all Canadian Premiers, or else, solve the HC issue to the monarch's satisfaction and the benefit of her subjects.
This decree put on notice that those who would not cooperate in this venture to improve the situation - better stand clear.
She was excercising the Crown's belief and practice that a strong/healthy/ well off citizenry is a strong well off Nation.
Or to put it in Youngstown perspective: "She diddddddnt want no grubby insurance goons cuttin in on her turf"
This lead to all Canadians having acceptable HC. and contrary to propaganda - its a meld for profit/prudent regulation/price control
As I said here in the USA, only Jesus return may carry such weight.But dont despair, Stay Healthy and Keep the Faith. $ I suppose when the Ins co's push it to the Kill the Golden Goose threshhold - maybe then some minor change may occur in line with Jeffs Free Market Religious beliefs
Whatta Country!
ps. I dont approve of such absolute power as a Monarch wields, the concept Royal Family (Blood)- just like my Yorkie's pedigree makes me break out in a rash...but what the hey - it worked in the Brit Empire!
Personal responsibility? In a time of crisis, don't you want to get to the nearest hospital to help your loved one? Seriously, Fred. You should be able to go to any hospital that is convenient. Or, how about when you're injured in a crash, all by yourself, and the ambulance takes you to the closest hospital and you're denied because the insurance you pay for won't cover you at that particular hospital. Oh, and be sure you have that ambulance ride pre-approved or you'll pay for it yourself.
Irresponsible? Nope. We are listed 37th on the list of health care for citizens. "The rankings are based on general health of the population, access, patient satisfaction and how the care's paid for." CNN article
For you budget conscious readers... "Overhead for most private health insurance plans range between 10 percent to 30 percent," says Deloitte health-care analyst Paul Keckley. "Overhead includes profit and administrative costs. Compare that to Medicare, which only has an overhead rate of 1 percent. Medicare is an extremely efficient health-care delivery system," says Mark Meaney, a health-care ethicist for the National Institute for Patient Rights.
Its like Moore says, we don't expect the fire department to make a profit, we expect them to put out fires whatever the cost. The free market works great for many things, not everything.
"The rankings are based on general health of the population":
Which should factor in their diet, exercise, smoking, drug use.....
"access":
That's the real issue, yes.
"patient satisfaction":
Not a crucial issue.
"how the care's paid for":
You pay higher taxes or you pay higher premiums... suit yourself.
i saw it. solid and informative. no doubt a must-see.
it did leave me a bit depressed.
all i know is that after seeing it, i am not even considering debating the issue anymore. i am not going to waste my time on someone that opposes national care.
Terra,
Your telling me no persoanl esbonsibility to understand the basics of your coverage such as which Akron hospital to got to ,which are all of 4-5 min. apart. I am still wiating for your reasoned answers to the question about how coverage limits are established.
chuck said
"all i know is that after seeing it, i am not even considering debating the issue anymore. i am not going to waste my time on someone that opposes national care."
wow that is one powerful movie, where you become an expert on something after one viewing, and know enough to completely ignore a differing point of view.
here is the point of view from a ER doc in Michigan who blogs frequently about this,
(pandabearmd.com)
"Let me try to explain this again. American medical care is expensive for everyone because the costs are shifted from one set of consumers to another. Most of us are not sick and except for the odd hospitalization for something unexpected don’t really require that much doctoring. There is, however, a small but significant subset of the population who use a terrifically disproportionate amount of health care. I write about this group extensively on my blog and they include the living dead vegetating in pre-death staging areas nursing homes, the multiply comorbid, and people who make bad lifestyle choices resulting in a state of perpetual symbiosis with the local hospital. Upon this group of people is brought to bear the full might of our technologically sophisticated but extremely expensive medical arsenal.
I treated a 79-year-old man the other day who has, I kid you not, eight stents in his coronary arteries, a history of three pulmonary emoblisms (emboli?), a greenfield fiter in his unamputated leg, diabetes, peripheral vascular disease, renal failure, a colostomy, a PEG tube, senile dementia, emphysema, and a string of minor strokes before the Big One that knocked out what looked like the entire left hemisphere of his brain. I have no doubt that the cost of his health care just in the last few years would be enough to pay for the health insurance of an entire Cuban province and probably runs into the millions of dollars, not one cent of which he or his family have paid or even expect to pay because you are picking up the tab with your outrageous health insurance premiums and twenty-dollar aspirins. Maintaining an ICU bed, for example, costs a typical hospital several thousand dollars a day and this gentlemen has spent months in the ICU while his family urges us to keep his heart beating regardless of the cost.
.
In Europe, this patient would have died fifteen years ago, probably after his first heart attack. Maybe he would have gotten the first heart catheterization, maybe he wouldn’t, but as his comorbidities snowballed the Freeloader Kingdoms would have cut their losses and, while advanced treatments are theoretically available, the reality of rationed care would have finished him off. A Greek doctor of my acquaintance related to me that even what we consider routine critical care would be considered extremely heroic and almost unheard of over there.
.
The argument goes that if this poor son of a bitch only had access to good primary care he wouldn’t have found himself in these dire straits requiring this level of care. Putting aside the obvious fact that many such patients in the United States have had excellent access to primary care (many of my ICU patients are retired from GM), and the dubious belief that primary care will keep people from cramming the metaphorical pie into their notional gob-holes, let’s asume that cheap primary care would have made this guy well and allowed him to live comfortably and productively into his golden years requiring nothing but a couple of inexpensive pills and a few doctor’s visits to manage relatively benign complications of his well-controlled medical problems. If this is the case and if all that is required to make the United States a Cuban-style health care paradise is cheap primary care, why should the government have to pay for it at all? In other words, if it’s cheap, why can’t people buy it themselves? A doctor’s visit here or there and a few pills probably costs less than most people spend on cable television. I know for a fact that one of my frequent patients can afford a thirty dollar a day marijuana habit (but won’t scrape together a couple of bucks for antibiotics at the local Wal Mart which practically gives away a long list of generic drugs) so a couple hundred a year for his doctor visits is a trivial amount."
i stand by my comment
T, this blogger sounds like he is blaming the high cost on a few who hog up/abuse the HC system. Maybe so, to a certain extent, but waste is the major expense factor. Nearly 50 cents of each HC dollar is wasted thru bloated featherbedded admin dog & pony shows.
Another underlying theme is that with 'reformed" HC such as in England - the ungrateful slob who doesnt take care of himself ends up dying sooner than our present system.
I doubt that
I will leave the "when is it moral to let him go" arguments to the theologians
T, I read that again and it sounds more like propaganda meant to project the root cause away from one area onto another (the HC slob)
Sort of like blaming the HUGE national debt on welfare babymommies
The fact is AGMC, for lack of a better term, "gave away" $62 million worth of health care in 2004. I imagine Summa's losses on services provided were much the same or more. It's a little naive to think that negative $120 million doesn't come out of your pockets one way or another.
Another point of reference is that during my extended illness, my average monthly bill from AGMC was around $ 23,000. Medical Mutual's average negotiated payment to AGMC was in the neighborhood of $7,500. The $23K might have been a "retail" price, but $7500 shows a pretty hefty discount.
This argumement would be better served if it was narrowed down to the most pressing issue: How do we get more people insured and treated ?
This debate doesn't have to be hypothetical you know. Private health care has already failed. We see the results. 45 million uninsured and companies leaving the country because of the cost. The debate, as Chuck says, is over.
We aren't stupid people, we don't have to import another countries plan from top to bottom. Lets take the best elements from the other countries that have universal health care and improve them.
OK?
Re: last two comments
Menck: Amen
Tim: Amen and Praise the Lord
Halleluja
Menck, My dad nearly dies last April and his bill from UH-Cleveland is about $350,000 - all of which is paid for by his wonderful Exec GE retirement package + medicare.
I do think that a large chunk of that may have indirectly paid for others care also & certainly a large amt of graft or waste
WE actually witnessed the "two tiered" HC coverage - either all paid or who knows what wil be paid! ?????? (like I have)
The actual care at UH was superb - maybe by virtue of my dads deep pockets coverage...
Why should there be coverage limits? Is there a point at which a person should no longer be cared for?
I'm still waiting for Fred and Jeff to tell me what the incentive is for a private insurer to treat people? They don't make any $$ that way, so their incentive is to deny coverage, and to find any possible reason.
I know which hospital I can go to. Good thing I told my husband, so now he knows. With insurance plans changing so often, do you really think everyone knows that. And why can't you ever just say, "Yeah, it would be nice to go to the nearest hospital for treatment in case of an emergency." Why is that impossible for you to say? That's something that could be achieved under your beloved for-profit insurance companies.
I was going to attempt a conversation, but your minds are made up, even though your knowledge base is limited to talking points and a propaganda filled, one sided pseudo-documentary.
I placed that link up there as an explanation for our high cost of care, it is hardly propaganda Petey, it is one person who is exposed to health care and his views, you can discount them if you wish but they line up with other peoples experiences.
Mencken-you are smart enough to know that negotiated rates with health insurance allow steady stream income for a hospital to stay afloat, it is no different from buying in bulk from Costco
Terra-the limits to healthcare spending that you find so onerous, are set so high that it drives up the overall expenditures, which was what you were originally bitching about, you can't have it both ways.
I am amazed at the closed-mindedness of some of you on this issue.
I have made up my mind that our for-profit healthcare system is failing Americans, and that a system that insures everyone and provides exceptional medical care is the best option for our future.
if a doctor hates socialized medicine, he should go into another field. i don't want doctors driven by profit - i want doctors driven by a desire to treat people
Terra (Chuck, this question could apply to you too) -
On this website you have written many things that indicate your distaste for many things about this country. The laws that govern our nation (and therefore, the people of our nation, since laws in a representative democracy such as ours reflect the general will of the populace) are racist, misogynistic, homophobic, unfair to "the poor", etc., depending on whatever issue you happen to be opining upon at any given moment.
Now, in this post, we learn that you believe that that the U.S. system for providing health care is the "worst in the western world".
Question: Exactly what are the things about our country that you like? What is it that keeps you here if this is such a terrible place?
This is a serious question and I look forward to reading your response.
Here's an excellent piece on the Moore movie by somebody who has a different point of view than you guys. Understandably, you probably won't read it since it doesn't reinforce core beliefs about a complex issue you seem to have developed after watching a movie.
Toward the end, Murdock makes the point that, most of the people who think government health care is a wonderful idea are also the kind of people who hold the belief that Republicans are truly "evil" people. Well.
Sometimes we have Republican presidents, sometimes we have Democrat presidents. You might misguidedly love the concept of government-run health care, but what if you get your wish and it turns out that Rudy Giuliani becomes president one day? What if George W. Bush had been America's top doc for the last six years? What if Ronald Reagan, that noted hater of the poor and minorities, had presided over our entire health care system for eight years?
Just some things to consider.
Chuck,
Socialized medicine will be a windfall for Doctors as private clinics open up, which will create a real schism in healthcare,the curent system is in need of fixing but your and Terra's ideas are naive and uninformed.
Any Dr who goes into medicine for money is a fool, there are alot easier ways to make money(also even the hardest profit driven Drs are generally still conscientious enough to be proficient) Your semi-slander of the opposition to Govt Provided healthcare as some sort of money grab is foolish.
Terra said
"that a system that insures everyone and provides exceptional medical care is the best option for our future."
no you continually insist that govt provided care is the only answer. You are ignorant of the costs of care, so for you to boldly make sweeping generalized statements is easy because you don't know any better. I don't know how you were never exposed to the concepts of resource allocation, but your education has been extremely lacking in that area, perhaps a basic economics class would serve you well.
Our present HC administative system is a bloated, featherbedded, disgusting, dishonest Frankenstein beast. Its so goddam incredible that this abomination sits at the head of the most advanced hi-tech Care available in the universe.
If anyone can show me a more fukkedup business enterprise...OORAH!
So let just argue the details as the graft mill goes marching on and grinding patients lives into pulp
We (the public) will have more success at poking butter up a cat's ass with a red hot needle...than will have fixing HC mees
I am ignorant of the costs of public health care? We spend more money on health care than any other country. Do you understand that? Answer please.
Most countries in Europe, etc, have public health care and their populations are healthier, live longer, and their system costs less than ours. (Oh, and if/when you go there, you will be treated on their tax $$. How naive of them!) That 15% that the US spends on health care comes from your taxes. Don't you think it would be better to pay 10% and cover everyone? I doubt I will see an honest, concise answer to any of these questions.
anon, there are things about our country which we believe are wrong. It doesn't mean we want to leave - we want to make it better. If we believe anti-gay laws are discriminatory and wrong, should we leave them as they are, or speak out about them? If we believe every American deserves quality health care, should we say something or sit quietly in the corner? We know that this is a good country at its core, and that it could be even better.
well that's great and i agree, everyone should speak up about things they believe can be improved upon in our country. but the question was "what do you like?"
so what are these things?
I see Chuck, only doctors taking a vow a poverty should be allowed to practice medicine. So who is going to pay off their $250,000 student loans and their $150,000 a year malpractice premium?
Are you really that naive?
Have no fear, guys, all the viable presidential candidates are getting generous encouragement from the insurance industry to maintain the status quo. Check out their donations. Health care for all is not in our near future.
Terra, great comment - in-the park homerun
To butt in: She likes if persons like you (anonymous) pull your heads out of your kiester. Maybe you can find someone from the Bush admin in there and drive out in their limousine.
Menck.....oppressive college debt.....Sueing for/$$$$GOD$$$$....leaders with spines of silly string...slinkies made in CHINA!
This country got some bodacious sized problems
Terra, I sure appreciate the IQ of my Yorkie just after reading all these seeming status-quo, or screw/the/ progressives threads
Terra said
I am ignorant of the costs of public health care? We spend more money on health care than any other country. Do you understand that? Answer please.
We do because people like you have created a ridiculous spending spree on healthcare where we attempt to keep everyone alive, employing heroic measures that other countries would never dream of,do you understand that?
Terra said
their populations are healthier, live longer, and their system costs less than ours.
this has to do with health risk factors not healthcare, you are incapable of understanding the difference obviously
terra said
That 15% that the US spends on health care comes from your taxes. Don't you think it would be better to pay 10% and cover everyone?
again you are confusing two seperate issues, I don't want the government making healthcare a government industry, Again there won't b a flat rate percentage like this one, and if anything that 15% you cite will be the starting point. Also that goes to fund programs such as medicare, medicaid Social Security, do you honestly believe that the cost of operating these entities will drop? It is not nearly as simple as you think it is.
concise enough for you?
terra said
if we believe every American deserves quality health care, should we say something or sit quietly in the corner?
how about trying to learn about an issue and perhaps understanding its complications and nuances before babbling on like some kind of loon, or perhaps listening to different points of view, that have far more knowledge on the topic than you. That is what an intelligent person would do-you, not so much.
Mencken, I get the impression that Chuck feels drs are overpaid, and his anti-establishment rhetoric is just a cover for this.
The answer to the HC mess:
Greatly expand the USN Hospital Corps and then let it run the HC system.
These guys are sworn "To aid the wounded in their time of need"
This group has the highest of standars and plenty of Medals of Honor to boot
Incidentally, I will be awarding a WWII unit commendation to 13 Marine Corpsmen in Norfolk, Va. Oct 13. I want to tell them that I WISH they were in charge of my HC!
Navy Corpsmen
Petey, even my not-so-bright cat is more intelligent than these guys. I like it when they call me closed-minded for looking into new things designed to make life better for people, while they are open minded for wanting to keep the for-profit system we have that doesn't help people??
t-dawg, doctors in these socialized health care systems receive $$ incentives to reduce the number of patients with high blood pressure, smoking, obesity, other "health risk factors." How can our doctors try to reduce these things when their incentive comes from the pharmaceutical industry to do the opposite? Which countries have different health risk factors than the US? Canada? Britain? France? Which?
I'll ask again:
Who's paying for it?
terra said
"How can our doctors try to reduce these things when their incentive comes from the pharmaceutical industry to do the opposite?"
oh my god, are you that stupid to think that drs incentive isn't the health of their patients? DO you think there is a shortage of patients? Do you know what we call Drs who work 60 hr weeks-lucky. They are probably in a lifestyle specialty, Everybody else has a booked appointment schedule.
Health Risk Factors (obviously a term you are unfamiliar, considering your derision of it) vary across the entire spectrum of civilization, the difference between the US and the nation you mentioned is the extent (which drives up cost) we go to protect people (sometimes from the ramificatiosn of their own actions) from illness. We spend more on healthcare because we do alot more. When your 90 yo grandma comes in presenting with dementia from alzheimers, we are still gonna do everything in our power to keep her heart beating regularly when we notice an arrythmia. In the other healthcare systems they won't. Our willingness to utilize the entire scope of our medical arsenal to keep alive EVERYONE, is the cause of our bloated costs. Why does our healthcare system face more risks -namely our diet- and the fact that we tend to keep very sick people alive longer(which they then consume a massive amount of resources). You don't know what you are talking about, and maybe you shouldn't go around assuming what incentives drive a profession you obviously have zero exposure too.
You haven't even taken the time to consider the ramifications or possible downsides to what you are espousing.
Geez, Dawg, you take the lords name in vain and call terra stupid in the same sentence ----- how can you ever expect any due consideration addressing persons like that?
Menck, the answer is you, me, my kids , your kids, all of us.
With any luck, and I am not holding out a truck of luck, if the waste/graft is reduced , it may be cheaper/better than status quo.
I absolutely dont know what will happen, but my bets are on the all powerful Pharm/Ins lobby to corrupt HC even further
Incidentally, at 10 am this morn. my boss called a meeting to inform us all that we have been rejected by Kaiser and other HC carriers that we applied for. So we are keeping our current co. - Anthem, benefits are being greatly reduced, and employee premiums are being hiked to cover the 30% rate increase.
I looked around the room and my associates faces looked like the guys in the draft physical line in 1969.
This whole issue turn my stomach
Dawg, just curious, Are you a HC professional?
sorry to hear that Petey.
Again, no specific answers to my questions. Only thoughtless rage from t-dawg.
Like Chuck, I'm done with this conversation.
terra, there's just no point in fighting those people. i feel good about my position.
for those that are uncertain, i encourage them to research the issue....and I think Sicko is a good resource to make a decision.
The different point of view to Moore's is the system we have now. It sucks!
Watching a Michael Moore movie and saying that an argument is enough, no more discussion is required is the same as listening to Rush Limbaugh and saying an argument you heard there is enough, no more information is required.
Again,
No one is saying the Moore's movie is enough. We are saying that other countries have succesfuly implemented universal healthcare, we should take the best of their ideas. Look at our terrible system - as I've said, this isn't a hypothetical - ours doesn't work. Privitaztion has already failed. You lose.
Get out of the way.
My wife is disabled with emphysema and the past few months, i staggered thru the HC funhouse with my dad, - brain surgery @ UH/ Cleve. ...nobody can make me believe the whole Doggie & Pony show could NOT be improved a might.
Sure, we have the best, brighest Docs, Nurses, PT's,Technology, Educational & research Institutions (God Bless University Hospitals) & on...
But, that makes it all the more crying shame that at the head of all that sits the Pharm/Ins lobby and the sinful waste of Beelezbub & his brother Louis Cipher.
Petey , Over-Out w/combat fatigue
Chuck, Terra, Tim, Menck salute to you for having the spirit to fight to improve the situation & sincere hopes that my pessism / or the malarkey of the status qouers does not infect you.
Off to my KV book - Bogumbo Snuff Box (great short stories from a young Kurt - somewhat bent by his WWII experiences)
I think we are ALL bent one way or the other