Immigration and the Republican Base
Here is a portion of Pat Buchanan's comments from yesterday's Meet The Press opposing the immigration bill:MR. BUCHANAN: You begin by enforcing the border, prosecuting businesses hiring illegals. And you go after, in deportation, the 600,000 who've been ordered deported who are now criminal felons who have stayed in this country. Many of them are child molesters, they're drunk drivers, they're rapists, they're robbers.Many of them? Wow. Insane. I'm amazed that you can just say something like that without having to back it up at all. Isn't that just racist? From what I have read and watched, this bill is going to die in the Senate this week and nothing is going to be done. My problem is that this kind of inflammatory rhetoric generated by this debate is here to stay. Conservatives have found a new boogie man.
One positive of this immigration debate is watching Republicans go after each other, particularly the President. Newsweek's most recent poll has President Bush at 26% approval. I can't help but think about what will happen when pollsters start to reach Republicans who are opposed to this immigration bill. Who is going to be left to support the President?
By Kyle - 6/25/2007
36 Comments:
immigration cuts both ways, there are plenty of dem voters who are disgusted with the sieve that passes for border security and the amnesty being offered to lawbreakers
I agree with the border security part. Step one that everyone can agree on is to secure the border. What should happen next is where the debate should begin.
most people do agree on border security.....and we (my side) are willing to start the debate after the border is secured. the debate now is should we do it all at once - knowing the enforcement part will never take place. Show me you can enfore the border and our laws and we can talk.
Uh Ben, hasn't your side been in charge of the border for the last 6 years ? Isn't Texas the reddest state in the union?
Anytime government tries to do anything comprehensive it seems to either fail or become a bad bill. I heard today that this bill has a chance because they are passing out pork in exchange for yes votes.
Would it be possible to put the racist card back in the deck. Crying racism etc. is not a defense.
Those that support the bill explain why and lay out what you see as the results of the passage.
Simple: SO SIMPLE: Enforce the immmigration laws.
What the hell has the Bush admin been doing for the last 6 years:
NOT ENFORCING THESE LAWS
& Congress - a gang of featherbed shitbirds: Shut the fuckup - we ALREADY HAVE pertinent laws----how about a resolution to "apply" some of those
OOOOOPS: Gonzo is asleep at the enforcement switch.....2 million more just snuck thru....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Our Fed Govt is busted, man
The only "racist" feelings I have is for the race of mutants that roost in DC
Folks , dont lose sight of the major problems that this country has whilst imbeciles political football the mexican issue
The funny thing about "border security" is the way people justify it by mentioning 911 and the war on terror. But until our canadian border is secure (more coast guard jobs on lake erie!) that point is BS.
Is it really bush's job to bust illegals?? I'm up at alum creek resevoir all the time, and park officers are constantly pulling over cars, many of which have illegals at the wheel. They are often let go, maybe bush should pin a little star on his vest and go clean out alum creek, or at least smack these park officers around a little? Sure the buck stops at the president, But a president can't micromange the nation's police forces.
By the way Petey, are you going to be as frustrated when the democratic president isn't busting illegals, because he or she(wow. kinda refreshing to be able to write "he or she" in that sentence) will go just as soft on 'em.
petey,
It seems to me this thing is about making them legal and doing nothing else period. Although passing the law will throw big bucks at eliminating the bottleneck that prevents people currently in line waiting will allow for faster entry and also allow faster admission for the family members of those already legal and those on the road to citizenship.
Then in anoher 10 years or so Ted or another Kennedy if no Kennedy is available perhaps Jeb would be available to write another immigation bill to accomodate the millions that will be here illegally and come up with new ways to deal with the situation.
If we pass enough laws often enough some may actually stick until them we will just keep writing more
Jeff, it IS Bush's job to enforce federal law through his AG. OHHHH I said AG, Gonzo is actually a MH (meathead),,,,
And Fred, its the NON functioning of the govt that frosts my garden - not what party is on the take
This is just another example of a gang of contemporary crooks that think that previous congressmen were ALL WRONG when they passed a law.
in other words - this law does NOT serve my donors - so lets "fix" that
Kyle,
To answer your question. No, Buchanan's statement is not racist. It is a statement of fact that many of the illegal immigrants currently in the United States have criminal histories. Combing through the headlines of any newspaper over the course of the last year will provide ample examples of this.
Consider this: if there are 20 million illegal immigrants in the country and half of one percent of them has a criminal history (beyond the violation of U.S. law that took place with the illegal entry into the country and whatever identity theft-related laws were broken to provide phony documents for work privileges), that half of one percent equals ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND.
Part of the problem is that accusations of "racism" and "xenophobia" are hurled at serious thinkers on this topic by people who view the matter solely through the lens of politics. This issue deserves more critical thought by Americans than "so-and-so is a racist...insane...so forth."
Do better.
Kyle, sorry i didn't respond sooner.
They commit crimes at the same rate, if not lower, than others. but republicans yell about them all being criminals. being in arizona and working close to crimes, i can personally avow that i see 10 times more whites in court for serious crimes.
this is while probably 1/7th of the state is illegal....so that means illegals commit crimes at a lower rate. makes sense, since they are here to work.
yeah ben, you controlled congress for over a decade and got no fence. too bad.
and bush is taking Arizona guardsmen off of border patrol to go to Iraq.
its like an alcoholic saying, "look, i'll get a job after i kick this drinking thing"....but they guy hasnt been able to quit drinking for 10 years.....THERE IS NO CREDIBILITY TO YOUR POSITION ANYMORE.
there is a big problem with the people here, and something needs to get done with them.
and the proposed bill puts everything on hold until greater security.
i don't know what i think about the proposed law, but i do know that people like Ben have a destructive impact on handling this problem. they use words like amnesty (when the path to citizenship is incredibly tough and will take a decade) and this bill ignores security, when it certainly addresses it (yet, i don't think any security measure is going to be enough).
and when people don't care about the canadian border, which is a bigger security threat to Americans, the whole thing smells of racism.
and like Petey said, Bush is not enforcing the current laws. HE IS BASICALLY REFUSING TO PROSECUTE EMPLOYERS!
So all this rhetoric on the far right is a freaking joke.
A BIG 10-4 on that Chuck!
"when the path to citizenship is incredibly tough and will take a decade"
most of the people dont want to be citizens, so they dont care, they just want to stay here. they will get amnesty.
Once again, just because you use CAPS LOCK when you type, it doesnt mean you are right. Because Bush didnt enforce the border laws, my position has no credibility? My position is the same...enforce the border laws we have. Past bills have addressed security, but there is never any follow through - why not prove that they will follow through first?
You wont take a stand on it - "I dont know what I think about the proposed law." Thats pretty bold. I am sure you do have an opinion, but for whatever reason you wont come out and say it. So it is easy for you to say I am being "destructive," when you can hide beyond your "I dont know what I think" line. It gives you cover to critize either side or whoever you want.
Ben, thank you for restating my --enforce the immigration laws feelings.
I think that for the past 6 yrs, our leaders have disregarded law and order in deference to big money donors.
Problem is, when you devalue the law for such purpose, you severely damage the Nation.
Now, we seem to have a DC inhabited by idiots who wish only to recreate the universe to their narrow specs and to the detriment of the whole.
Enforce the laws / or if absolutely necessary modify/improve with some integrity.
It absolutely chokes me up to see whats left of the "conservatives" cheerleading amnesty. So just what party or philosophy is Bush's creed?
Law and Order is every American's prerogative
Anonymous, The AP reported earlier this week that the number of illegals has hit 12 million, not 20 million. Instead of reading the headlines, how about actually reading an article. Stop dealing in hypotheticals and provide an actual statistic or some facts to back up you support of Mr. Buchanan's remarks.
To unfairly characterize "many of them" as child molesters, rapists, and drunk drivers is to insight hatred and intolerance, which is the very definition of racism. These arguments remind me of a scene from Birth of a Nation.
Are there illegal immigrants in this country committing crimes? Yes. I understand that they are committing a crime by being here in the first place. Look, I support securing the border for national security, economic reasons, and to limit the crime that surrounds all the illegal drugs that pour through the border. However, I'm not going to demonize people who come to this country looking for a better life in the process.
If you watched Buchanan on Meet the Press and think he's a racist, then you are obviously blinded by your own biased views on the issue. Nothing he said was racist. He wants to enforce the laws. Where is the problem? He said he wants to deport the 600,000 that are criminal felons...how in the hell is that racist?
If you could understand context, you would understand that the "they're" referred to the criminal felons he was previously talking about.
He destroyed that imbicile he was debating. That fool kept saying the same bs you constantly hear..."bring them out of the shadows"..."they do jobs others don't". Right. And no one ever picked fruit before they came here.
Hmm because they commit crimes at a lower rate, they should be allowed to stay here. GREAT LOGIC!!
They are committing a crime in just being here. Can you get that through your heads? Do I blame them for coming here, of course not. But does that mean that they should be allowed to stay, no.
ben,
i really don't know how i feel. that's what happens when things are complicated.
but if a gun was to my head, i woudl probably vote for it, and then still work on separate bills to fix glaring problems with it.
I honestly go back and forth on the standing of the undocumented people. some days i just say enforce current law and eventually people will leave and/or get deported through the process.
i am not bold on this. the people that are bold seem odd to me on this. Kennedy and McCain and a handful of others seem genuine. Others seem focused on their special interests. Some liberals are pandering to unions (against the bill), conservatives are pandering to business (for the bill), and other conservatives pandering to their base (against the bill). Those people bother me.
So i guess you are right, i am taking shots at a lot of people. but that doesnt mean i am wrong in what i am saying (just like caps lock doesn't make me right).
and another thing, i honestly think the border is a huge problem. an open border creates terrorist threats and also causes problems with an important goal of national health care. That really is priority #1.
but when the GOP couldnt do a damn thing about it for a decade, why in the hell would anyone care what they have to say now.
Also, Birth of a Nation is a silent film. On a side note, I'm glad to be back to instill some objectivity...
silent, they commit crimes at a lower rate. the point is to impeach the credibilty of the person saying inaccurate stuff, not as a reason for them to stay. at least that's my position.
one more thing, ben explained that a lot don't want to become citizens, just get to become residents. that's probably right.
so would you be okay with a sunset provision that kicks them out if they don't earn citizenship by a certain time (say 6 years)?
it would show they took the american culture part serious.
and it would be a serious restriction/pressure on residents to do the right things or go away.
i am not trying to sound all superior, but that is the types of compromises that i bet you are not willing to make and that ruins the entire debate.
I think they should abide by the law. They should be allowed in according to the quota.
I question the sunset provision because we know they are not going to volunarily turn themselves in if they do not meet citizenship requirements.
Listen, I fault both sides. Big business loves them for their cheap labor, and the Ds love them for their votes. Also, as you astutely pointed out, the Rs have been in charge for 10 years and things have only gotten worse.
welcome back silent, you were missed and are needed here. Post frequently and often please.
Kyle,
Nothing I wrote was hypothetical. And estimates vary greatly as to how many are here illegally, it's hard to say...because they're, um, illegal...
But let's use your figure. Half of one percent of 12 million is sixty thousand. This figure isn't really any less heinous. Are you truly not at all familiar with any of the highly publicized, well-documented cases in which illegal immigrants have committed heinous acts which were entirely avoidable had our country's immigration laws been enforced?
Calling people who don't believe the Washington politicians when they say they're going to enforce existing immigration laws - plenty sufficient to address this issue, by the way - racists is not a legitimate pursuit of your alleged high-minded ideals. It's petty and foolish.
Do better next time is all I'm saying. Buchanan's views on this are pretty representative of how the American people feel about the issue.
Kyle,
By the way, I happen to agree with your sentiment regarding "not demonizing people who try to come here for a better life". That's what makes the matter tough for many people - on one hands, Americans are a compassionate, generous people; on the other, open borders and loose enforcement of existing immigration laws have serious consequences on matters ranging from national security to social services spending to cultural tensions to jobs and the economy - so on and so forth.
But the key is to understand that current practices have come at significant cost over the last twenty years since the last time the politicians told Americans this issue was resolved. It is not helpful to dismiss people in public life who have the courage to tell the truth about these costs and other consequences as bigots.
Last post from me on this-
Unsaid by Buchanan, which you fail to address head on and which I failed to address in the previous post, is the fact that yes, most of the people crossing the southern border are doing so to seek opportunity. But there is absolutely no way given the current state of affairs to differentiate between these people and the people Buchanan refers to in the quote you provided.
So essentially, what we as a nation are doing is accepting people into this country whose first act on U.S. soil is to violate U.S. law, then to accept the fact that some (Buchanan's "many") of them have intentions and personal histories that are less than pure.
So I guess the question is, what's wrong with pointing this out to the American people and what about doing so makes a person a racist?
Get it?
fair enough. my point is just that i am staking out a position and you are not, so it is easy to criticze. it is complicated, i agree. i think there are parts for ang against it that most people agree with, i just see more negatives.
your 6 yr sunset provision would be fine with me actually. i just wonder if they would ever enforce it, or if they would have the resources to do so.
Also remember, many illegals DO NOT wish to become citizens.
They prefer the anonymity that they currently enjoy for an array of reasons- cash wages, unaccountability to law enforcement......other.....
Hey Silent Majority... is this you?
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