"Thursday's vote marks a stunning political defeat for the president...the Senate vote could open the floodgates, heralding a series of defeats for the president's other plans - including a potential troop surge in Iraq."
It's going to be a long, long year and a half for W. I have no doubt that the man would quit if he could.
Think about this issue in the context of 2008. Immigrants now rival gays in the rankings of Republican fears. I have this feeling that this issue is going to go back to the states and there are going to be ballot initiatives like there were for gay marriage.
A focus on fear seems to be the Republican plan to get out their base vote in recent elections.
There were many reasons for the defeat of this bill having absolutely nothing to do with racism or hate that have been articulated by a number of serious, thoughtful people this week in the media and elsewhere.
It would be interesting to hear an explanation from someone as to how Sherrod Brown ended up on the same side of this as the alleged haters.
I haven't heard Sherrod's perspective yet but I would guess he doesn't agree with the idea of creating a permanent underclass of workers in this country. A guest worker program that doesn't include eventual citizenship is wage slavery. I'm glad this bill was defeated.
From The CPD: Brown said he was most upset by a provision that would have created a new "guest worker" program to provide visas for more temporary foreign workers. "It would have brought in too many low-wage workers," he said, who would "have a depressing effect on wages."
Anonymous, there were a lot of good arguments made against this bill. Saying that many immigrants are disease infested child molesting rapists who just want to drink and drive isn't one of them. That was my point in the post on Mr. Buchanan's comments.
Fair enough. Funny, Brown's concerns re wages mirror those of many elected representatives of the other major American political party (not Democrat). And Brown couldn't be more correct. And Buchanan's assertions as to the consequences of porous borders and rampant illegal immigration, while you may not like the way he delivers them, are correct as well.
But I can't recall an instance in which the "R" word was used by a Republican to describe any Democrat opponents of the bill.
Timfritz, Are you refering to the second class citizens as the quest workers or the undocumented that wanted to come out of the shadows? If it is the first they would not be citiznes. If you are refering to the second how would you propose lifting them from second class status?
I said guest workers right in the comment. This whole idea that there are jobs that Americans won't do is a fucking lie, though. These 'free market' conservatives aren't so free market when it comes to labor sometimes. If you pay someone enough there is no job that can't be filled. If Americans won't pick strawberries for minimum wage than you need to raise the wages not invite in Mexicans who you can pay less and then send back after a few years(who most likely won't go back).
Timfritz Thank you. I have to admit I didnt read his comments. Would you agree that legalizing 12-20 million undocumented will create another group of second class citizens?
Bob, he will keep the job as long as he can because no one says no. Does he really care about immigration? Probably not. He doesn't stand to make any $$ from it.
Now that the Vice President isn't a member of the Executive branch, does that mean he serves indefinitely? The Executive and even Legislative branches are subject to elections, but Cheney isn't in either branch. Look for them to exploit this loophole... (sarcasm)
No, I won't admit that because I don't agree with it. While I'm not for legalizing 12 million immigrants, it would make them less of second class citizens than they would be as guest workers. - and just to be clear, I'm answering your question not stating a solution.
Timfitz, you are absolutely wrong about illegals depressing wages.
We are running at below 5% unemployment, a level that is pretty much impossible to beat.
Capitalist economies are stellar at creating jobs, and our economy is no exception. Study after study has concluded that immigrants do not supress wages, and in fact often increase wages, by boosting local economies with their productivity and purchasing power. There has been some reported wage depression in southern cal, but that area of the country is not a good indicator for the majority of the US.
I am convinced that most of the anti-immigrant arguments are based on racism and fear. I can understand why politically conservative individuals would succumb to these arguments, but liberals need to avoid such thinking. The labor left is mostly to blame for this rhetoric, and I encourage all those on the left to ignore the protectionists, and take a good look at the empirical data available.
If there weren't illegals or "guests" to pick on the farms the stuff would rot in the field? I highly doubt it. Someone would be paid to do it or there would be more innovation to get it done. I'm not anti-immigration. I'm anti-guest worker with no path to citizenship. I'm against companies hiring illegals and treating them like slaves.
What I am saying is that our economy will create jobs at a pace equal to the increase in available workers. America isn't overly saterated with hard working laborers!!
If you take a historical look at our economy since the great depression, you will see that our unemployment rates barely ever change by more than just a few percentage points.
Immigrants may have put a dent in the wages of low-skill labor, but these are hard working people, helping our economy. They are people, and the only thing they have going for them is that they know how to live on less money than most americans. I do not have an overwhelming "america first!" attitude. American, hispanic, korean, indian, who cares?
I have a blue collar job, and although what I do isn't unskilled labor, I work in close proximity to unskilled laborers every day. I much prefer working around immigrant workers more than unskilled Americans, so maybe I have some sort of bias that the rest of the nation doesn't share.
Shutting out immigrant workers may increase the wages for unskilled labor, but this comes at quite a price:
1. There would be less laborers to fill the jobs, and productivity in these sectors would suffer.
2. Everyone would be paying more for just about everything.
3. There would be less workers available in fields that require somewhat skilled workers.
4. Less individuals would be motivated to aquire skills, and contribute those skills to our economy.
5. Girls only want boyfriends with great skills
Americans should stop squabbling over jobs picking fruit, we should turn our attention to creating a tech driven economy that can compete globally. Pro-growth domestic policy, and less protectionism would be a good start.
As you would rather work next to immigrants than "unskilled Americans" - I would much rather (caution: sans PC ) have Mexicans in the huge Victorian house next to me than all those lowlife/ white trash/ jackup the car& leaveit for 6 weeks --- section 8 hillbillies- presently in there.
My impression of my neighbors- they dont seem to be able to do much of anything except idle and they seem completely content with that
Fred, its not that deep, I was just diahrea mouthing the neighbors - as I walked out to get my mail this morn that house looks like a garbage dump, beer cans in the hedge, circle K plastic bags in my yard, Ladder up to the upstairs window?????
Not an easy answer - but I do believe that if you are lazy and think that idling is just whoopee, the nation suffers
I have a concrete set of rules to live by that were whipped into me in the 50's and 60's by Nuns, A Seabee Petty Officer Father, Ass kickin getterdum Uncles, other military types.
Idling just gets my goat - dont care whoya are!
Maybe its that society is so confusing and "undirected" that so many just throw in the sponge and just idle- but I give no quarter even so.
You are either contributing to strenghthening the Nation or you are an idle scab on Uncle Sam's butt.
But , I should talk - I am preparing to retire and live off investments and fart around alot, although do gobs of charity work for various groups I am associated with.
I leave you with the words that my Father commisioned me into the world of work:
"Get out of bed every morning with the intent to work hard to STRENGHEN the Nation. And, some days if you feel weak and lazy - then get out of bed and do the same for ME or your loved ones"
So Petey went forth and many years later he is here this beautiful Ohio Sunday morning to yank Jeff's Chain or all others that needs yanking, armed with my family's version of the CAN DO SPIRIT.
thats fine - i'm arguing against guest worker programs with no path to citizenship(or a ridiculously hard one). man - I sure use the wrong "your" a lot, sorry.
Oct 17 - 46/45 - McCain +01
32 Comments:
In the article:
"Thursday's vote marks a stunning political defeat for the president...the Senate vote could open the floodgates, heralding a series of defeats for the president's other plans - including a potential troop surge in Iraq."
It's going to be a long, long year and a half for W. I have no doubt that the man would quit if he could.
Is it official now that Bush has spent ALL of his political capital ?
Think about this issue in the context of 2008. Immigrants now rival gays in the rankings of Republican fears. I have this feeling that this issue is going to go back to the states and there are going to be ballot initiatives like there were for gay marriage.
A focus on fear seems to be the Republican plan to get out their base vote in recent elections.
border security/illegal immigration issomething with alot more substance than gay marriage.
What's the reflection in the window? A ceramic frog?
There were many reasons for the defeat of this bill having absolutely nothing to do with racism or hate that have been articulated by a number of serious, thoughtful people this week in the media and elsewhere.
It would be interesting to hear an explanation from someone as to how Sherrod Brown ended up on the same side of this as the alleged haters.
Give it a shot!
The bill was shit and anyone who thinks you can solve what is essentially a refugee problem with legislation is naive.
I haven't heard Sherrod's perspective yet but I would guess he doesn't agree with the idea of creating a permanent underclass of workers in this country.
A guest worker program that doesn't include eventual citizenship is wage slavery. I'm glad this bill was defeated.
From The CPD: Brown said he was most upset by a provision that would have created a new "guest worker" program to provide visas for more temporary foreign workers. "It would have brought in too many low-wage workers," he said, who would "have a depressing effect on wages."
Anonymous, there were a lot of good arguments made against this bill. Saying that many immigrants are disease infested child molesting rapists who just want to drink and drive isn't one of them. That was my point in the post on Mr. Buchanan's comments.
Fair enough. Funny, Brown's concerns re wages mirror those of many elected representatives of the other major American political party (not Democrat). And Brown couldn't be more correct. And Buchanan's assertions as to the consequences of porous borders and rampant illegal immigration, while you may not like the way he delivers them, are correct as well.
But I can't recall an instance in which the "R" word was used by a Republican to describe any Democrat opponents of the bill.
Speak Comanche or get out!
Timfritz,
Are you refering to the second class citizens as the quest workers or the undocumented that wanted to come out of the shadows?
If it is the first they would not be citiznes. If you are refering to the second how would you propose lifting them from second class status?
I said guest workers right in the comment.
This whole idea that there are jobs that Americans won't do is a fucking lie, though. These 'free market' conservatives aren't so free market when it comes to labor sometimes. If you pay someone enough there is no job that can't be filled. If Americans won't pick strawberries for minimum wage than you need to raise the wages not invite in Mexicans who you can pay less and then send back after a few years(who most likely won't go back).
I propose we make Fred take the American Citizenship Test to see if he can pass the English Language section.
This story today at CNN is probably an even better link.
I love how those near Bush describe him as "certainly not despondent."
That's like saying he has "certainly not given up hope on life, retiring to the Situation Room with a case of Jim Beam."
And what a great description: "slumping toward the finish."
Seriously, does anyone out there think that this guys wants this job for one more lousy day?
Timfritz
Thank you. I have to admit I didnt read his comments. Would you agree that legalizing 12-20 million undocumented will create another group of second class citizens?
Bob, he will keep the job as long as he can because no one says no. Does he really care about immigration? Probably not. He doesn't stand to make any $$ from it.
Now that the Vice President isn't a member of the Executive branch, does that mean he serves indefinitely? The Executive and even Legislative branches are subject to elections, but Cheney isn't in either branch. Look for them to exploit this loophole...
(sarcasm)
No, I won't admit that because I don't agree with it. While I'm not for legalizing 12 million immigrants, it would make them less of second class citizens than they would be as guest workers. - and just to be clear, I'm answering your question not stating a solution.
Timfitz, you are absolutely wrong about illegals depressing wages.
We are running at below 5% unemployment, a level that is pretty much impossible to beat.
Capitalist economies are stellar at creating jobs, and our economy is no exception. Study after study has concluded that immigrants do not supress wages, and in fact often increase wages, by boosting local economies with their productivity and purchasing power. There has been some reported wage depression in southern cal, but that area of the country is not a good indicator for the majority of the US.
I am convinced that most of the anti-immigrant arguments are based on racism and fear. I can understand why politically conservative individuals would succumb to these arguments, but liberals need to avoid such thinking. The labor left is mostly to blame for this rhetoric, and I encourage all those on the left to ignore the protectionists, and take a good look at the empirical data available.
That Pic...OHHHHHHH whatta fukkin dupa this guy is!
I heard someone say that lsat week(not in the Exec branch)..
I knew this all along Cheneys office is a subsiderary of Enron/Halliburton/ExxonMobil...
That was obvious since the covert "energy" policy meetings.
Bullshit Jeff.
If there weren't illegals or "guests" to pick on the farms the stuff would rot in the field? I highly doubt it. Someone would be paid to do it or there would be more innovation to get it done. I'm not anti-immigration. I'm anti-guest worker with no path to citizenship. I'm against companies hiring illegals and treating them like slaves.
Jeff,
Upon rereading, I think we are arguing 2 slightly different points....
I know the stuff wouldn't rot in the fields.
What I am saying is that our economy will create jobs at a pace equal to the increase in available workers. America isn't overly saterated with hard working laborers!!
If you take a historical look at our economy since the great depression, you will see that our unemployment rates barely ever change by more than just a few percentage points.
Immigrants may have put a dent in the wages of low-skill labor, but these are hard working people, helping our economy. They are people, and the only thing they have going for them is that they know how to live on less money than most americans. I do not have an overwhelming "america first!" attitude. American, hispanic, korean, indian, who cares?
I have a blue collar job, and although what I do isn't unskilled labor, I work in close proximity to unskilled laborers every day. I much prefer working around immigrant workers more than unskilled Americans, so maybe I have some sort of bias that the rest of the nation doesn't share.
Shutting out immigrant workers may increase the wages for unskilled labor, but this comes at quite a price:
1. There would be less laborers to fill the jobs, and productivity in these sectors would suffer.
2. Everyone would be paying more for just about everything.
3. There would be less workers available in fields that require somewhat skilled workers.
4. Less individuals would be motivated to aquire skills, and contribute those skills to our economy.
5. Girls only want boyfriends with great skills
Americans should stop squabbling over jobs picking fruit, we should turn our attention to creating a tech driven economy that can compete globally. Pro-growth domestic policy, and less protectionism would be a good start.
Jeff, I think we have mind melded.
As you would rather work next to immigrants than "unskilled Americans" - I would much rather (caution: sans PC ) have Mexicans in the huge Victorian house next to me than all those lowlife/ white trash/ jackup the car& leaveit for 6 weeks --- section 8 hillbillies- presently in there.
My impression of my neighbors- they dont seem to be able to do much of anything except idle and they seem completely content with that
Petey,
Do you attribute the differnce in work ethic to the culture or that one needs to work and the other doesnt?
Fred, its not that deep, I was just diahrea mouthing the neighbors - as I walked out to get my mail this morn that house looks like a garbage dump, beer cans in the hedge, circle K plastic bags in my yard, Ladder up to the upstairs window?????
Not an easy answer - but I do believe that if you are lazy and think that idling is just whoopee, the nation suffers
I have a concrete set of rules to live by that were whipped into me in the 50's and 60's by Nuns, A Seabee Petty Officer Father, Ass kickin getterdum Uncles, other military types.
Idling just gets my goat - dont care whoya are!
Maybe its that society is so confusing and "undirected" that so many just throw in the sponge and just idle- but I give no quarter even so.
Its not proportional to particular group - seems like EVERYONE is infected by the idling bug.
& No I am not a racist
I guess my simple mind boils it down to this:
You are either contributing to strenghthening the Nation or you are an idle scab on Uncle Sam's butt.
But , I should talk - I am preparing to retire and live off investments and fart around alot, although do gobs of charity work for various groups I am associated with.
I leave you with the words that my Father commisioned me into the world of work:
"Get out of bed every morning with the intent to work hard to STRENGHEN the Nation. And, some days if you feel weak and lazy - then get out of bed and do the same for ME or your loved ones"
So Petey went forth and many years later he is here this beautiful Ohio Sunday morning to yank Jeff's Chain or all others that needs yanking, armed with my family's version of the CAN DO SPIRIT.
Semper Fidelis
Jeff,
Your simply not arguing the same point as me. I'm against that bill that died, not immigration.
I'm arguing for more open borders
thats fine - i'm arguing against guest worker programs with no path to citizenship(or a ridiculously hard one).
man - I sure use the wrong "your" a lot, sorry.
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