Can You See The Difference?
One of our readers Silent Majority says: "Why not discuss the difference in imgages from Qualcomm Stadium (resulting from the fires in SOCAL) in San Diego and the Superdome in New Orleans (resulting from Katrina). I want to hear how such enlightened individuals as yourselves spin the stark contrast."
The top photograph shows the New Orleans Superdome with the roof blown off and surrounded by water. The second picture was taken at San Diego's Qualcomm Stadium two days ago on October 24th. Qualcomm will close to evacuees today at noon so that the San Diego Chargers can play this Sunday.
Enjoy the game.
Unrelated: I have decided to go to Saturday's Halloween Party in Highland Square as Stephen Colbert. I hope to see you there.
The top photograph shows the New Orleans Superdome with the roof blown off and surrounded by water. The second picture was taken at San Diego's Qualcomm Stadium two days ago on October 24th. Qualcomm will close to evacuees today at noon so that the San Diego Chargers can play this Sunday.
Enjoy the game.
Unrelated: I have decided to go to Saturday's Halloween Party in Highland Square as Stephen Colbert. I hope to see you there.
By Kyle - 10/26/2007
61 Comments:
This is a comparison that has been made repeatedly in the conservative media.
They love making the comparison but they're too coy or chickenshit to be honest about why they're doing so or what their ultimate point was.
I am not being coy or chicken-shit. Neither of you have yet to offer a reasonable answer as to why the situations are so different. The physical comparison of the stadiums is not what I am asking about. What I am asking about is why the New Orleans Superdome was filled with scenes of savagery, rape, etc, yet San Diego's Qualcomm had no violence.
I think this issue reveals a microcosm of how some individuals are afraid to speak of race open and honestly. Solutions are only attained by discussion and ideas, not sarcasm and avoidance.
It really is a shame that you are unwilling to confront this issue. Like I said before, I hate responding to Menchen's drivel. But to address his statement, I will say that I am bringing up the issue because I think it is important to have open and frank discussions about race.
It just really is pathetic the avoidance of the question. Why show the physical differences of the two stadiums? Even if you are trying to be sarcastic, I do not get it. I mean, one was caused by a hurricane and the other by a fire.
Why does one assume I have a racist agenda by bringing up the issue? Can one not discuss race without being called a racist? Is that why Sir Kyle is avoiding it?
I apologize for my latest entries, for I did not read Robert's post. Still, I believe it presents a troubling fact about black culture in America. Do not spin this into me spewing racism, for I am not. I am merely observing that there are some enormous problems that have become incredibly pervasive in black culture. I know I will be labeled a racist simply because I am observing some not-so-nice realities about a certain culture. And please, spare me the "don't stereotype" argument. It is just maddening that important issues can not be discussed because of political correctness.
welcome back silent majority, I am happy you have returned to battle these savages.
I agree with you s.m. We need to discuss the cultural crisis. The problem is seen outside of the New Orleans city limits. It is seen in Cleveland and Akron as well. The first step is acknowledging there is a problem, a very serious problem. Lets save the political correctness for the Senate and Harry Reed (who still thinks global warming was the cause of the Calf. fires). Have a real discussion, think with your mind, not your agenda. This culture needs help yesterday.
Wait a minute here. There was race involved in New Orleans. Big time. There were black refugees greeted across bridges to the outside world by white police with shotguns and riot dogs. You can't make a statement on race without looking at the treatment of the black people within the shelter by the white community outside it.
This wasn't the break down in San Diego, and because of that you can't make a clear comparison. The stadium's weren't used in the same manner, either. The Superdome was literally a shelter. It was used as one big roof. If folks stayed on the street, they would have drowned.
Qualcomm was just a place for people to gather. They could have camped out at the airport, or on a cruise ship, and would have been as safe as if they slept on the street. This wasn't a shelter WITHIN the disaster area. That's a huge difference.
bottom line is black culture is out of control. We now have east side gang bangers invading tremont and Ohio city robbing people as they exit restaurants and bars. So tired of these gangbangers ruining our city.
we need an armed population to just shoot and kill these hooligans, there is no rehabilitating these crime comitting monsters just shoot them
quit making excuses for those that commit violent crimes Gabriel. Being black doesn't mean you can commit crimes. This I believe
Interesting how the flying monkeys line up behind Silent Majority.
I'd take flying monkeys over gabriel
I'm sure your children will be adorable.
I am sure yours are real winners as well
Well... despite both being deadly and horrifying, here are some OBVIOUS differences:
1.) A wild fire works a whole lot different from giant floods of water that crash in all at once, and cause massive flooding and destruction and death AFTERWARDS when levees are breached.
A wild fire moves in waves with the winds and will literally jump from one sub-division to another skipping one or several in the middle.
2.) So far, 12 deaths have resulted from the SoCal fires.
3.) According to the Louisiana state medical examiner, Dr. Louis Catalde, as of August 15, 2007 (yep, 2 yrs after Katrina initially happened because some bodies had only just been found then) the death toll of Katrina was 1420. Louisiana's deathtoll alone was 1104. Neither of these numbers includes the still missing and never accounted for, which stands at 2300.
4.) About 1,500 homes have been lost in the SoCal fires. Most of those homes are in San Diego.
5.) About 275,000 homes were lost to Katrina. 200,000 of that number alone were in New Orleans. Didja catch that? 200K ALONE in New Orleans. For comparison, Hurricane Andrew in 1992 caused about 28,000 to be lost; the combined effect of Hurricanes Jeanne, Ivan, Frances, and Charley in 2004 caused nearly 27,500 homes to be lost. AGAIN: 200,000 homes were lost in NOLA alone. For further comparison, these following cities have populations around 200K: Tucson, AZ; Birmingham, AL; Hialeah, FL; Indianapolis, IN. Imagine wiping out those entire cities to compare the devastation inside NOLA.
6.) Temperatures: It was in the mid-70’s in the SoCal coastal evacuation centers.
7.) It was 90 plus degrees inside the Superdome.
Yet, lemme get this straight: Silent Majority is attempting to convince us that that "San Diego Did Everything Right" and that if the "hyper violent black folk"... i.e. the local people in New Orleans, had simply just come through for one another, there would have been no tragedy??
What complete crap.
The horrifying Katrina aftermath (ya know, when the levees broke AFTER the initial awful hurricane came thru) was the worst disaster in American history. In San Diego, folks could drive up to the evacuation center and drop off supplies. There was no entry or escape from New Orleans for days. If you tried to escape, YOU WERE SHOT DEAD.
Almost 80% of New Orleans was flooded.
No communications were going into or out of New Orleans because no one's cell phones or land lines or internet worked. I know. I tried in vain to contact friends I made when I lived in New Orleans during the late 90s, and even if they were able to get out, if they had a NOLA cell phone, they could not use it.
Yes, both the SoCal fires and Katrina are heartbreakingly awful, deadly, and incredibly devastating.... yet there is simply no comparison, and the SoCal fires should not be used to minimize the true horrifying tragedy of Katrina for the city of New Orleans: that the Federal Govt sat by while New Orleans both drowned and burned, while our President remained on vacation and sent Brownie to do a heckuva job of allowing folks to die in their wheelchairs, wallow in feces and urine inside the Superdome, swim thru the dangerous garbage, debris, feces and urine that filled the flooded streets of NOLA, die of dehydration and or lack of medicine or proper medical care.
my biggest problem with the Katrina disaster is everyone blaming the federal govn't. The blame for this disaster rests with the corrupt local govn't. which happen to be democratically led. They did nothing for their people and the same continues even today. Its crawling with scandal and trash
We must be able to separate race and culture.
Until we can look at predominantly black 'thug life' culture and criticize it for being intellectually and morally bankrupt without the threat of being labeled/feeling racist, this debate goes no where.
I'd bet that hippie culture is more predominantly white than hip hop culture is predominantly black. Has anyone ever been called a racist for bashing hippie culture though? The mere suggestion is absurd.
yeup the foolish liberals are excusing the behavior of the animals in the superdome and blaming the feds, typical. Nice try tin-tin but what silent majority was discussing was the actions of the populations within. keep on making excuses for such vile acts. By the way Genarlow Wilson was released today
Thank you Tina.
Never gonna happen b/c too many whites fear even the threat of being labeled racist. Nas titles his album Nigger, and I hear adults walking around sayin "OH NO THE N word" it is ridiculous. Being black means nothing, it puts you at no real disadvantage ($$ being equal) but as long as fools continue to allow a lower form of behaviour and excuse it because the perpetrator is black it will continue the cycle. Also black racism is prevelant in attitudes and demenaors and it is excused, and in some circles promoted without the bat of eye from otherwise moral individuals.
Tina,
I am not comparing the 2 disasters. Like I said, one was a hurricane and the other was a fire. They are very different and I do not think that anyone is arguing against that. Someone else brought up the fact that the evacuees in SOCAL could have gone to the airport. I do not see how that is relevant.
However, in both instances there were evacuees in stadiums. One was savage and repulsive, the other seemingly without incident. Your argument about it being 90 degrees has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with what went on. Are you implying that blacks can't behave well in the heat?
Even if the government response was much more efficient in SOCAL, how does that explain the behavior of those thugs in the Superdome?
I feel that it is a glaring example of the breakdown in black culture, one that glorifies the degredation of women and "no snitching." It further denotes how fearful lovey-dovey whites are of making logical observations of black culture. There is nothing inherently racist about a white person making an observation about thug culture, just as there is not anything inherently racist when a black makes an observation on white culture.
Never a good sign when Menchen agrees with you.
http://clevescene.com/2007-10-24/news/racism-reversed/
By the way, the most blatant race-mongerer of them all is coming to Cleveland this weekend.
ARE blacks really living out MLK Jr and the other civil rights leaders/activists dreams when they sacrificed what they did? The schools are open, to blacks, Employers by in large cooperate with equal opportunity, no blacks are denied entrance anywhere, a black guy is a viable presidential candidate, a black is on the supreme court, we have had senate races where both major party cadidates are black. So how much is opportunity or lack there of and how much is on the individual nowadays? Racism for the most part died, it has just become an excuse not to succeed by those who wouldn't succeed in life even if you could change their race.
One last try SM.
Superdome: Inaccessible because of flood waters.
SOCAL: Drive up & park your car. Leave when you want.
Superdome: No food, no water, no medical care.
SOCAL: Food, water, medical care.
don't forget this Mencken
Superdome:behaved like animals
SOCAL: behaved like civilized humans
silent majority, change your name to vocal minority...
Tim Fitz,
I see you have taken the high-road (or shall we say cop-out) with Kyle and have thus given the proverbial "no comment."
If you are going to attack me, at the very least you should try to answer my question first.
Like I have said 50000x, I know this nasty little issue goes against your anti-capitalist/racist/sexist/homophobic/ethnocetric /bands no one knows nor cares about image. But I urge you to please offer an opinion. Menchen is the only person who has tried to explain and, as we all know, his opinion does not count.
Oh and let's not forget this dandy:
"It was 90 plus degrees inside the Superdome."
Yes, this really was offered as an explanation for the savagery that took place in the Superdome.
I cannot comprehend the excuses some people make.
It is also comical/embarrassing how Mr. Kyle tried to diminish the stark contrast between the stadiums by comparing the two photos. Granted, I know when a disaster strkes white people it can never be serious. But seriously, if the shoe were on the other foot, Chuck would be screaming bloody murder (or maybe he would be screaming that the Duke LAX players are guilty).
On a side note, anyone see how a running back from Penn State was charged with rape? Any ideas why Sharpton and Jackson aren't there? But I am the racist, right?
SM is right on so many levels. Talk anything about another culture and you are a racist. Other cultures talk about issues and it is not a big deal.
How is it being racist to talk about real issues without making excuses and avoiding issues that are so obvious? I guess we should just keep on being the way we are and not talk about it and whenever certain people miss behave blame it on someone else forever.
Silent Majority: I said that blacks behave badly because of the 90+ heat?
Are you for fucking real?
I DID NOT SAY THAT AT ALL.
What I did say was something like this:
According to the Uniform Crime Reports of the FBI, peak occurrences of common crimes of violence (such as assault, rape, and murder) occur in the hottest summer months.
Race had ZERO to do with that.
ANYONE (white, black, brown, or plaid) who was unable to eat, drink, flush a toilet, take a shower, wash their filthy hands, change their dirty clothes, brush their teeth, contact loved ones, find missing loved ones, sleep (except for in cramped stadium seats), change their babies' dirty diapers, feed their hungry and crying children and babies (unless you were breastfeeding and were able to feed em' all, of course!) could begin to become agressive and fed up in 90+ degree heat inside the Superdome.
THAT was point.
It had NOTHING to do with race, ya idiot.
This is def a great thread. We might as well look at other aspects too of this issue. Why in some cases when African Americans do well in our society in ways other than; singing, sports,or dancing sometimes in their own culture they get labeled as uncle tom's? Even Obama was getting grief for not being "black enough" It just does not make sense.
Another thing: I misspoke. I should have said this: "In addition to the local govts, the Federal Govt sat by while New Orleans both drowned and burned..."
Absolutely NOLA's local govt failed. But the White House did nothing but watch it go down like Nero fiddling.
And when one considers that the median household income in San Diego County in 2005 was $64,273 and the median household income for New Orleans in 2005 was $30,711, I guess all local govts and local govt resources are NOT created equal.
But I guess-- as bloved Rumsfeld pointed out-- you face the natural disaster with the local govt funds you have not the local govt funds you wish you had.
look at yourself tina, just making excuses for criminals because they were black
are you for real?!?!??!!
ya idiot
What SM wants you to believe is that people having no food, water, or medical care, trapped by rising water would act exactly the same as people who loaded up their cars, drove to a stadium and were given food and water and medical attention if so needed. That is the central tenet that he wants you to believe. And that black people are savages. I don't know how you can explain his position any other way.
the only thing mencken said that people need to comprehend is th part where he says "I don't know"
what happened in the superdome is pretty par for the course for NOLA if you look at the crime stats, you just had a concentrated dose of n'awlins behaviour.
after the 31rst i will have plenty of time to argue again, SM - till then i'm too busy to read the whole conversation and i don't wanna repeat whats already been said. one thing though, i like how you(and your ilk) condemn the personal attack with a personal attack. that kind of shear hypocrisy defines you well.
I think that if you look at the plainly obvious facts, the major differences simply defy the application of a comparison between these two situations. Apples and Oranges.
Tina covered it well.
For me the Nat'l Guard troops w/ machine guns who were ALL OVER in San Diego might help explain why one scene was more calm.
I'm not going to call anyone stupid, but the comparison is simply dumb, and defies elementary logic.
Dear balless Anonymous, because really, being anonymous takes such spine:
Look at you making excuses for blatant disregard for human life at the federal level... by a party which laughingly calls itself pro-life. Then again, these are the same folks who somehow say that being pro-war and pro-death penalty is pro-life, too.
And a concentrated dose of NOLA? Have you ever lived there?
I did. For over a year.
I guess no white middle class folks live in NOLA, huh?
Yep. It sure was hard being the lone white person there. Especially with my strawberry red hair and freckled skin. Although on the plus side, it sure was easy to spot me on a crowded street.
And didja also know that no poor whites live there either? Yep. THAT is especially unheard of in the deep South.
I guess that makes my upper middle class white friend who has been rebuilding his destroyed home plank by plank a complete anomaly.
And hey, why we're at these sweeping generalizations, I guess I was the only straight person to live there, too. huh? Yep. In case you didn't know it, everyone who lives there is black AND gay.
And for the "Tina is a bleeding heart lib who panders" asshats: I was once a victim of black on white crime. Late one night, as a college student, I was nearly raped by my friend's 2 black neighbors, who were brothers and were drug dealers. The 2 guys watched me let myself into my friend's house to study for an exam we had at Kent the next morning, proceeded to kick the door in, and tried to rape me on the floor of the foyer. My friend, a gay man, called 911, and beat the brothers off of me with a baseball bat. They ran out of the house, but were arrested later that night when one of them had to go to the hospital for 3 broken fingers and a shattered cheekbone that was caused by the bat. A trial happened. They were both found guilty, and served time, although not enough time as far as I was concerned, but that is our justice system and I accept it and it's many flaws.
I guess if I truly excused crimes committed by black criminals, I would have blown them a kiss and said awww shucks, guys, let's just let bygones be bygones, eh?
Or, if I used your logic (or your blatant racism, as the case may be) I should despise every single black person on this earth for the actions of 2 black criminals, right?
But maybe, since you are so quick to dismiss everything I say, including hard, cold facts, you're just gonna say that I simply asked for it by daring to be in "that" kind of neighborhood of fellow college students who have to afford cheaper housing and can't afford to live in country clubs?
Any way you look at it, I'm sure you'll somehow fault me for it since personal attacks is all you've got.
Mencken: Roger that. And I guess somehow that SM and balless Anon will say that this news from MSNBC, Oct 23rd has no bearing on how people who suffered in Katrina see the blatant differences: "Bands belted out rock 'n' roll, lavish buffets served gourmet entrees, and massage therapists helped relieve the stress for those forced to flee their homes because of wildfires."
Too bad Prez Bush didn't show up in SoCal with that guitar with the presidential seal that was given to him while the horrors of Katrina were unfolding. He could have whipped up a soothing song.
Well atleast now I know I can commit felonies and use the weather being too hot, a lack of food, and lack of medical supplies as a defense...hope I get a liberal judge
Tina you sounded a lot like harry reid in that post when you denied that you said what you said....let's recap:
despite both being deadly and horrifying, here are some OBVIOUS differences:
6.) Temperatures: It was in the mid-70’s in the SoCal coastal evacuation centers.
7.) It was 90 plus degrees inside the Superdome.
you then deny saying that by stating this:
Are you for fucking real?
I DID NOT SAY THAT AT ALL.
What I did say was something like this:
According to the Uniform Crime Reports of the FBI, peak occurrences of common crimes of violence (such as assault, rape, and murder) occur in the hottest summer months.
Race had ZERO to do with that.
You liberals make it so easy for us to win...ps congessional approval rating 11% George W. 37% weird
Anonymous would have us believe that there are no conservatives in Congress.
aww yes when the news is good it's all dem when it's bad you want to share the responsibility with the minority
Anonymous, who is incapable of reading AND using their real name:
I sound like Harry Reid? WHERE? WTF are you blathering about?
At no point of the first part of my post where I listed the obvious differences between SoCal and New Orleans did I ever make race an issue for either evacuee situation. I merely pointed out the factual differences (I know facts are hard for you, but in this lil place called reality, we use them) that could affect how people behave and/or perceive things.
Silent MINORITY is the one who is and continues to make race an issue.
To SM, the entire reason New Orleans went down the way it did was because so many trapped inside the Superdome and flooded city were black.
There is a word for that. It is called racism.
"silent majority said...
Tina,
.... Are you implying that blacks can't behave well in the heat?"
Hmm... BLACKS in the heat.
Clearly, Silent MINORITY's statement was about race, no?
My statement was this:
6.) Temperatures: It was in the mid-70’s in the SoCal coastal evacuation centers.
7.) It was 90 plus degrees inside the Superdome.
Any mention of anyone's race there at all?
Answer: NOPE.
My other statement was this:
According to the Uniform Crime Reports of the FBI, peak occurrences of common crimes of violence (such as assault, rape, and murder) occur in the hottest summer months.
Again, what part of that statement is about race?
Did anyone mention race at all... either me or the FBI???
Answer: NOPE.
What is recurring in these statements is this: HEAT. Heat, that certainly when combined with the other incredibly difficult situations like no working toilet facilities, no communications, no food or water, no ability to come or go, or have a police presence, could make anyone turn into an agressive monster. Since SoCal had massage therapists, comfortable temperatures, cots to sleep on, buffet tables overflowing with food, police presence, safe havens for their pets and children and elderly, the ability to come and go and chat with folks on the phone and soothing music to calm their frayed nerves, I guess we'll never know if those wildfire evacuees would have behaved like the Katrina evacuees, who were for all practical purposes, held prisoner inside the Superdome and inside the city which was 80% flooded, now will we?
Ooops... that's right. Since the majority of the SoCal evacuees were white (although it certainly looked like a whole lotta of 'em were Hispanic, too... shhh... nobody tell the Minutemen) I'm sure your answer is of course that the white folks would have behaved like angels during Katrina because white folks do not commit crimes, white folks do not destroy things, white folks do not get upset when their pets are made to be left for dead, white folks do not turn to crime to steal food and water, white folks do not get fed up with watching their kids and elderly wallow in filth and hunger while a president vacations. Yeah... right. I have news for you, most law abiding people thrown into dangerous, desperate and lawless situations will turn into mercenary criminals in a short amount of time. I also have news for you, if I had been trapped in NOLA with my 5 yr old daughter and 7 month old son, I'd have stolen Jesus off the cross, tried to sell someone the nails, and lied about it later if it meant I would have been able to take care of my kids and keep them alive.
Speaking of children... I have to take care of mine... not attempt to argue with one.
Hey when it comes down to it, the individuals chose to rape and pillage, their guilt is not allieviated by extenuating circumstances.
Oh watch out folks now if you argue with tin-tin you are not ony a racist (shocking that libs throw this accusation out so casually!!)) but a homophobe, because no one ever talked about gays. Rigth NOLA has always been the bastion of law and order.
get real tin-tin
She can't even argue without just breaking out the double barrelled racist cannon and firing it willy nilly at all who oppose her obviously enlightened views (sarcasm dripping with this statement for those of you to dumb to get it)
I think Tina, Seth, and Menchen would make one kick-ass high-school trial team.
They refuse to answer any questions. All they do is offer excuses. "It was hot, one was a hurricane, blah blah." SO WHAT!!
Can you not understand that there is no excuse to behave like an animal. And if you want to take out race in this argument, then please don't imply that there were racial undertones in why the federal government did not respond to Katrina with the efficiency you believe it should have. Can't have your cake and eat it too.
Also, we beg you Tina, to please quit writing novels. I know it is hard to prove your irrational point, but no matter how much bull-shit you utter, your idiotic view-point still crumbles to logic.
Plus, when you consider that such heavyweights as Sir Kyle and Tim Fitz have yet to offer an explanation, it must make you kinda wonder.
There is a quote from Michael Parenti that reads something like "the fear of communism led to an anti-communist ideology that blinded us to reality."
This is analogous to today, where the fear of being called a racist has blinded us to the anti-racist dogma that has thwarted any positive discussion about race.
(Sir Kyle, like how I gave props to the author of the quote?)
I am going to the halloween party as harry potter, I will see you there Kyle
Silent, the rape stories at the Superdome have been unsubstantiated. In Spike Lee's documentary "When The Levees Broke",he has a ton of footage of the Superdome tragedy. I know you won't watch it, but I strongly recommend it to those of you looking to learn more about the events at the Superdome. I think it would stop you from using the term "animals" when referring to fellow citizens.
Harry Potter, sorry I didn't see you.
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