When Cultures Attack!
Man that last thread was littered with land mines, eh? I wanted to chime in all day, but it was one of those thin-ice topics where you have to spend so much time choosing your words and making sure your analogies don't offend that it takes an hour to write sentence number one. I'd been meaning to write a race/culture post for a while and the last thread was just the jolt I needed.
I'll start off by saying that I find both sides of this race debate frustrating. On one side I often see people who have a burning desire to imply (but can't just come out and say it) that blacks are some inferior, bottom-feeding race that have no one to blame for their troubles, aside from Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson. People who say shit like "Get over it! Slavery was like 200 years ago!" These people don't want to listen when you point out that Martin Luther King Jr, who stood up in the face of police dogs and fire hoses would have been 78 years old this year had he not been murdered for simply speaking out about equality.
On the other side, I see people who are often unwilling to face statistical realities and scared to even admit that yes... there are fundamental differences between races. Would anyone here honestly argue that Asians don't have a knack for math? If you had to bet your life's saving on the outcome of a spelling bee, would you not put your money on the Indian kid? Would any gringo that's traveled in Latin America argue that Latinos don't have festive dance in their blood? Or that Koreans are more introverted than Americans?
If we are even willing to acknowledge these differences the next question of course is are these racial or simply cultural traits? My guess: some are racial, some are cultural, some are a bit of both. Here's all that matters to me though:
(1) Different races are fundamentally different in all sorts of ways. It's OK to admit and even embrace this. However, no amount of statistical evidence proving one race is superior to another in such-and-such category could ever validate discrimination against an individual based on their race. Period.
(2) On the other hand some cultures (and sub-cultures) are categorically superior to others (How we judge a culture is a whole 'nother can 'o worms). Cultures are fair game for scorn, mockery and criticism, and voluntary members of those cultures are fair game as well.
Do we need to be accepting/tolerant of every subculture out there from Amish to Hippie to 'Thug Life' to Wicken to Polygamy? It's one thing to support people's right to subscribe to any stupid, self-destructive subculture, and as long as they're operating within the law, I do. It's another thing all together to treat any and every culture as sacrosanct.
(I'll never forget Whoopi Goldberg on The View suggesting that, being from the deep south, dog-fighting was a part of Michael Vic's "culture" implying that 'cultural crimes' should be protected by 'cultural immunity.')
Bottom line: many of our nation's inner-city Blacks (along with many inner-city Whites and Latinos) have subscribed to a particularly shitty, corrosive subculture, it's that simple.
If we can arrive comfortably at that conclusion, the next question is WHY. Why is it so prevalent? Is there cultural baggage, discrimination, exploitation or general disadvantage involved? This is where the liberal can step in and make an argument that the mere existence of this 'Thug Life' culture is a product of generations of (or continued) oppression by whites. I'm not saying I agree or disagree. Just saying that this is a starting point for an honest discussion.
Unfortunately we seldom get that far because we're too afraid to admit that the culture is shitty in the first place at the risk of seeming racist. Instead we sometimes even defend it as if it's an inseparable part of the African-American racial fiber. Which, if you think about it, is truly offensive.
The sooner we draw a line in the sand between race and culture, the sooner we can work towards racial equality and racial tolerance while at the same time shamelessly challenging any dead-end subculture that ails our nation.
I'll start off by saying that I find both sides of this race debate frustrating. On one side I often see people who have a burning desire to imply (but can't just come out and say it) that blacks are some inferior, bottom-feeding race that have no one to blame for their troubles, aside from Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson. People who say shit like "Get over it! Slavery was like 200 years ago!" These people don't want to listen when you point out that Martin Luther King Jr, who stood up in the face of police dogs and fire hoses would have been 78 years old this year had he not been murdered for simply speaking out about equality.
On the other side, I see people who are often unwilling to face statistical realities and scared to even admit that yes... there are fundamental differences between races. Would anyone here honestly argue that Asians don't have a knack for math? If you had to bet your life's saving on the outcome of a spelling bee, would you not put your money on the Indian kid? Would any gringo that's traveled in Latin America argue that Latinos don't have festive dance in their blood? Or that Koreans are more introverted than Americans?
If we are even willing to acknowledge these differences the next question of course is are these racial or simply cultural traits? My guess: some are racial, some are cultural, some are a bit of both. Here's all that matters to me though:
(1) Different races are fundamentally different in all sorts of ways. It's OK to admit and even embrace this. However, no amount of statistical evidence proving one race is superior to another in such-and-such category could ever validate discrimination against an individual based on their race. Period.
(2) On the other hand some cultures (and sub-cultures) are categorically superior to others (How we judge a culture is a whole 'nother can 'o worms). Cultures are fair game for scorn, mockery and criticism, and voluntary members of those cultures are fair game as well.
Do we need to be accepting/tolerant of every subculture out there from Amish to Hippie to 'Thug Life' to Wicken to Polygamy? It's one thing to support people's right to subscribe to any stupid, self-destructive subculture, and as long as they're operating within the law, I do. It's another thing all together to treat any and every culture as sacrosanct.
(I'll never forget Whoopi Goldberg on The View suggesting that, being from the deep south, dog-fighting was a part of Michael Vic's "culture" implying that 'cultural crimes' should be protected by 'cultural immunity.')
Bottom line: many of our nation's inner-city Blacks (along with many inner-city Whites and Latinos) have subscribed to a particularly shitty, corrosive subculture, it's that simple.
If we can arrive comfortably at that conclusion, the next question is WHY. Why is it so prevalent? Is there cultural baggage, discrimination, exploitation or general disadvantage involved? This is where the liberal can step in and make an argument that the mere existence of this 'Thug Life' culture is a product of generations of (or continued) oppression by whites. I'm not saying I agree or disagree. Just saying that this is a starting point for an honest discussion.
Unfortunately we seldom get that far because we're too afraid to admit that the culture is shitty in the first place at the risk of seeming racist. Instead we sometimes even defend it as if it's an inseparable part of the African-American racial fiber. Which, if you think about it, is truly offensive.
The sooner we draw a line in the sand between race and culture, the sooner we can work towards racial equality and racial tolerance while at the same time shamelessly challenging any dead-end subculture that ails our nation.
By Robert - 10/26/2007
48 Comments:
Thug life baby!! or is it the beautiful people?
Wonderful post. I think it more or less captures the frustration/fear that accompanies any discussion abour race.
This begins to really tie into my personal philosophy post from June: Don't Worry Be Distinguished
To continue that thought. In my eyes, culture is nothing more than one groups rules and regulations for gaining social distinction.
To peel back the lid on that can of worms I mentioned earlier: How do we judge the superiority/inferiority of a culture?
The answer lies in these rules and regulations. How does an individual win social distinction in the group? Is it through cooperation, material possessions, courage, subjugation, productivity, intellect, some animalistic display of force etc.
You see I don't consider a gang-banging high schooler any different than myself back in high school. We were both doing the exact same thing, that is trying our damnedest to win the social distinction of our peers. The only difference is the rulebook we were handed.
I saw an opportunity to win the social distinction of my peers by entering art shows, jumping hurdles, writing a zine and doing all sorts of other non-destructive things (even the destructive ones weren't that bad).
This is exactly why the expensive after school programs for the arts and sports are so important for inner city schools. Kids aren't just running laps and fiddling with pricey instruments, they are finding positive ways to win social distinction. They are choosing/defining a culture.
Agreed. Understanding why they behave like animals is important to solving the problem. Let's reiterate though that understanding is NOT acceptance.
It is perfectly natural to seek social acceptance. This is why I believe the breakdown of the black family is so destructive. When 72% of your children are born to single-mothers, you are asking for your child to fall victim to the many ills that plague black neighbrohoods. Thus, without a father figure or strong family unit, the child is left to identify with his peers, who are in the same situation he is.
And for this reason, something drastic must be done to end this sickening cycle. However, nothing can be accomplished if there are fools running around crying racism at any mention of the downfall of the black family. This is why it is so frustrating when imbiciles such as some of the people that post on here, foolishly think they are carrying the flag of progress for blacks. In reality, they are enabling them to remain in this destructive cycle.
I must be hallucinating. Well presented Robert. Fortunatley you are not a public figure or your carrer would be over. I will be interested to see if your post elicits serious discussion or is ignored. I will put my money on ignored or at the very least side stepped.
Full circle: I should probably go on record regarding the discussions in the previous threads:
I DO think that the cultural component of the Super Dome played a huge factor in behavior. I just cannot imagine that a stadium full of Mormons, in the same unthinkable situation (and even with a touch of anti-Mormon treatment from the Feds) would have been caught acting in the same way. That's just my opinion.
BUT, and this is a big one, I DO NOT think that the Qualcom Stadium / Superdome comparisons are remotely fair for all the reasons listed in Kyle's thread.
Yeah, especially the "heat" argument. Were there differences? Of course. If Qualcomm had the same conditions as the Superdome, would there have been an increase in the number of incidents? Probably.
However, I do not think it is too much of a stretch to compare the resulting behaviors that took place within. Rarely are two situations every exactly alike, and thus if we refrained from comparing two fairly similar events, merely because they were not "exactly" alike, it would prohibit us from making basic observations.
NOLA: dome, hurricane, hot, lack of water, lack of basic sanitation, MURDER, RAPE, THUGGERY
SOCAL: open-air, fire, 70s, adequate water and sanitation.
If we were to listen to the nonsense written by some, then they would have you believe that if SOCAL had the heat, lack of sanitation, etc, then there would have been rapes, murders, and thuggery there too.
Maybe that's the new question I would pose to the enablers of thug-culture. That being, since the conditions of SOCAL were not identical to NOLA, do they think the thuggery that transpired in NOLA would have occurred in SOCAL if the conditions were the same?
Silent Majority,
I should've been more specific. I don't give a shit about the heat either. I shouldn't have said "all" the reasons listed in Kyle's thread. The big ones that I had in mind were:
(1) The fact that one was an island INSIDE a disaster zone and the other was OUTSIDE with means to leave and simply head up the road to a hotel.
(2) One had no supervision/law enforcement and the other was crawling with armed National Guards men.
(3) The conditions regarding sanitation and relief supplies were night and day.
(4) Finally, as Tina pointed out, the scope of the disaster, in concentration, number of deaths and total destruction of homes, was orders of magnitude worse in NO.
and I'll add one more:
(5) The resources available to those fleeing. I don't have hard numbers, but I'd love to know the average income of a NO refugee and a SOCAL refugee or the percentage that owned a reliable automobile.
I am not being a apologist for the Super Dome behavior. I am just saying that for these reasons, I don't think the comparison is fair.
A side note about my point (5) above:
Where there is money there is often an additional layer of entrepreneurial aid worker. The people who quietly "aid" by selling hyper-priced bottled water, blow-up mattresses and Cheetos.
The closest I've been to a humanitarian refugee crisis was Woodstock '99.
There were 250,000 kids, 50 port-a-potties and no running water. It was Super Dome type heat with no shade anywhere. And it lasted 3 days, at the end of which people set everything that would burn on fire.
Luckily for us [said with sarcasm] there were people selling CUPS of water for $4 and hot-dogs and pieces of pizza for $12.
I'd wager that this breed of "entrepreneurial spirit" was much more prevalent in SOCAL, and helped ease the pain of many refugees fleeing their Malibu summer homes.
Robert - you are a bright person and I subscribe to everything you said.
One minor addenda, if I may: I believe that there are no "races" other than to say "The Human Race" ~ We are all the SAME- "racially " speaking
The concept of Race:Confusions About Human Races
By R.C. Lewontin
Confusions About Human Races
If one would admit that all humans are of the same makeup...then much wasted energy (trashing your brother) would be saved.
That said, I would NEVER dislike anyone because of what they look like --- I do dislike some cultures and religions and those that practice same. By shelving the occulting "race card" I can be much more objective about those who I dislike or like for the same matter.
Here is a vision that I had last week on the drive home:
Asian Indians are goddam shitty construction managers.
Thats gotta be culture related
Points 1, 4, and 5 are irrelevant.
"(1) The fact that one was an island INSIDE a disaster zone and the other was OUTSIDE with means to leave and simply head up the road to a hotel."
This has no bearing on the 20,000 or so people that were in Qualcomm. They were in Qualcomm and did not head up the road. Thus, there were evacuees in SOCAL, just like there were evacuees in NOLA.
"(4) Finally, as Tina pointed out, the scope of the disaster, in concentration, number of deaths and total destruction of homes, was orders of magnitude worse in NO."
First off, citing Tina automatically arouses suspicion to the soundness of an argument. Here, you are lumping another variable that plays no role in what went on INSIDE the 2 staidums. As already stated, one was a hurricane and one was a fire. And while yes, they are different, they still have no bearing on what went on INISDE the stadiums.
"(5) The resources available to those fleeing. I don't have hard numbers, but I'd love to know the average income of a NO refugee and a SOCAL refugee or the percentage that owned a reliable automobile."
OK, again, how does this limit one from comparing the 2 stadiums? I mean, SOCAL probably had more Mexican refugees. Does that mean you cannot compare it to NOLA just because the 2 tragedies affected different races? That makes no sense.
Reasons 3 and 4 I agree with. They are 2 things that differed INSIDE the stadium and maybe do make comparisons difficult. I do not think so, but an argument can at least be made.
Also, if these people have the money you claim they do, then why wouldn't they "head up the road" to a hotel?
Skin-color is a mere adaptation to the sun. Africans developed darker pigment because it blocked the harmful UV rays better. Scandanavians developed a much fairer complexion because they were exposed to less sun-light and therefore needed as much UV exposure as possible.
However, here is an interesting quote by one of the discoverers of DNA, James Watson (like this kyle?):
"He says that he is 'inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa' because 'all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours-–whereas all the testing says not really,' and I know that this 'hot potato' is going to be difficult to address. His hope is that everyone is equal, but he counters that 'people who have to deal with black employees find this not true.' He says that you should not discriminate on the basis of colour, because 'there are many people of colour who are very talented, but don't promote them when they haven't succeeded at the lower level.' He writes that 'there is no firm reason to anticipate that the intellectual capacities of peoples geographically separated in their evolution should prove to have evolved identically. Our wanting to reserve equal powers of reason as some universal heritage of humanity will not be enough to make it so.' "
I want to disagree with him obviously. However, one cannot overlook the differences that exist. One example is the obvious athletic supremacy of blacks. If they can be superior athletically, can they be inferior mentally? I do not think so, but who knows.
Very good points, but here come the posts saying it is a society issue and not a gentic thing..
obvious athletic supremacy of blacks
Now that can be argued also.
Take a look at all the basball players froom all around the world - currently in the World Series.
Would you still argue one group over another?
Its more like a specific group excels at a certain athletic feat because its part of their culture.
What would explain that the Scots are the best rock throwers.....or Polynesians are great swimmers?
You need to keep up with your science, kids. "Race" is not a scientific term. The differences you are discussing arise from cultural and economic variables within society. If you want to solve the problem of gangsta invasions of urban neighborhoods, you need to look at
1. economic opportunities for black males
2. the excessive rate of black male incarceration in prisons
3 which is tied to lack of black male heads of households in many urban families
4. what brings about the education gap from the high scoring asian to (in descending order) white to hispanic to black. It isn't about DNA, remember that and look harder.
vg, thank for calling me a kid, gramma
I agree - "race" is not the same meaning I knew 40 years ago. I submit that it is meaningless like so much other politicized phrases.
My point is to consider that every person is atomically the same as you - just different beliefs, looks , cultures and as you say economic factors.
Now that you have swallowed that - Consider that there are NO native Americans. Russians walked across the Bering Ice bridge to populate the Americas.
Go argue that one with Mormons.
We are on the same page
Comparing Katrina with the California situation is folly due to the numerous variables. The people in California had the means to help themselves. Most of those forced to flee the fires had the ability to escape a living hell and choose the best opition for themselves. Most of those left behind in New Orleans had no opitions and are still waiting for their situation to be remedied
Perhaps we need to ask ourselves the question what is man's response when he has options vs. the actions of those that are dependent on others to react to those needs?
Village Green,
This reminds me of the Colbert satire about "not seeing race." I mean are you serious? Chiming in with some jab, questioning the term "race." I would point out that I still see it in my dictionary as "a group of persons related by common descent or heredity," but I refuse to let this thread devolve into some semantics fight.
We are talking about genetic factors as opposed to environmental factors. Use whatever terms suites you.
To refer to your points:
How does looking at say... the rate of black male incarceration help solve the problem? You mention symptoms not root causes. We couldn't solve this problem by say... working to decrease the number of black males that we incarcerate, could we?
Why is it that so many black males have fled the responsibility of fatherhood, or why is it that these females are engaging with these types of men in the first place? Culture. This culture has attached social distinction to all the wrong things, the values are clearly reflected in just about every rap song.
And your point #4 boils down to: "Nuh uh!"
Only your first one is a valid point: economic opportunities for black males. The problem is that whites who confuse 'Gansta' Culture with African-American race, will continue to discriminate against blacks in the work place. And PC liberals only muddy the waters by defending Gansta Culture as something intrinsically black.
Anyone who's been involved in the interviewing process knows all too well that the hiring process is based on regular people's gut feeling about a candidate. This can never realistically be policed by some race watch-dog.
Sure you can make all sorts of race/gender related quotas, but these often perpetuate the racial/gender tensions that they attempt to correct.
How do we really solve this problem? We educate/empower young inner city kids, and show them that there are other BETTER options for gaining social distinction.
I have serious doubts that the majority of those who are already indoctrinated, stuck in the revolving door of the prison system can be helped with a simple job offer.
For the most bang for your buck, I say focus on creating options for inner city youth; the younger, the better.
Bob, you reference "statistical realities" and then went on to list stereotypes that you believe to be true without any statistics. What is a statistic that you feel illustrates your point? Personally, I'm betting on the home schooled kid at the spelling bee.
I understand your point though and wanted to respond. The fact that there are statistics that show differences between races does not mean that race is a reason or even a factor. Let's say that Jewish Americans average a 4 points higher mathematics score than Latinos on the ACT. That statistical data shows that Jews are better at math. Case closed? No. It could be the median average family income of Jewish Americans is $40,000 higher than it is for Latinos. It could be that a significantly higher percentage of Jewish Americans attended pre-school and kindergarten when they were kids. It could be that 70% of Jewish students have at least one parent with a bachelor's degree compared to 30% for Latinos. I made up these numbers, but I'm trying to make the point that there are so many factors that play into those statistical realities that you reference.
Dr. Gerald Myers - My sociology professor, a long time before political incorrectness-
He said that Humans are soley the product of what they learn and absorb through the culture they growup in. Further: a human baby raised by animals is an animal.
At that time , there were three "Races"-- Mongoloid, caucasoid and Negroid
Always wondered how the Asians and Am Indians liked being called "Mongoloids"
I guess I dont know what the hell they are teaching today
Robert: You asked this: (5) The resources available to those fleeing. I don't have hard numbers, but I'd love to know the average income of a NO refugee and a SOCAL refugee or the percentage that owned a reliable automobile.
I DID PROVIDE THAT INFORMATION.
I SAID:
"Absolutely NOLA's local govt failed. But the White House did nothing but watch it go down like Nero fiddling.
And when one considers that the median household income in San Diego County in 2005 was $64,273 and the median household income for New Orleans in 2005 was $30,711, I guess all local govts and local govt resources are NOT created equal.
But I guess-- as beloved Rumsfeld pointed out-- you face the natural disaster with the local govt funds you have not the local govt funds you wish you had."
But then of course, it didn't matter how many actual facts one presented because such factual info was summarily dismissed and personally attacked because, unlike so many others who spewed their hatred and ignorance, I do not believe that all black people are animals and deserve to be annihilated as some posters have suggested.
I refuse to hate an entire race of people or say that all of them are thugs and criminals, and I say this DESPITE being made a victim of black on white crime. And NOTHING blatant racists say will make me hate another race of people or raise my children to hate an entire race of people.
And because I "dared" to suggest that people (who are held captive for 5 days inside the 90 + degree Superdome with 30,000 hot and dehydrated people with NO water, NO food, NO electricity, NO running water, NO toilets, and NO communications of any kind) will get pissed off and behave agressively, I was crucified.
Yeah. Give me a fucking break. Stick me and my little kids (who would have been bawling their heads off as any kiddo would) in that kind of oppressive heat and unbearable situation and I guarantee you that I'd have zero qualms about trashing the place and looting stuff to take care of me and mine.
Also, Kyle pointed out that the "news" about violence inside the Superdome was completely overblown and this from The Seattle Times from Sept 26, 2005 more than backs that up:
'Reports of anarchy at Superdome overstated'
By BRIAN THEVENOT and GORDON RUSSELL:
Following days of internationally reported murders, rapes and gang violence inside the stadium, Louisiana National Guard Col. Thomas Beron, came prepared for a grisly scene: "I've got a report of 200 bodies in the Dome," Beron recalled a FEMA doctor saying.
The real total?
Six, Beron said.
Of those, 4 died of natural causes, one overdosed and another jumped to his death in an apparent suicide, said Beron, who personally oversaw the handoff of bodies from a Dome freezer, where they lay atop melting bags of ice.
State health department officials in charge of body recovery put the official death count at the Dome at 10, but Beron said the other 4 bodies were found in the street near the Dome, not inside it. Both sources said no one had been murdered inside the stadium.
At the Ernest N. Morial Convention Center, just four bodies have been recovered, despite reports of heaps of dead piled inside the building. Only one of the dead appeared to have been murdered, said health and law-enforcement officials.
The vast majority of reported atrocities committed by evacuees — mass murders, rapes and beatings — have turned out to be false, or at least unsupported by any evidence, according to key military, law-enforcement, medical and civilian officials in positions to know.
"I think 99% of it is [expletive]," said Sgt. 1st Class Jason Lachney, who played a key role in security and humanitarian work inside the Dome. "Don't get me wrong — bad things happened. But I didn't see any killing and raping and cutting of throats or anything ... 99% of the people in the Dome were very well-behaved."
Both Mayor Nagin and NOLA Police Chief Compass later admitted the reports of mass rape and murder were completely false.
Read the entire article... ooops... that's right... Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh still say it happened, so it must be the God's honest truth... despite zero police reports, zero Nat'l Guard reports (except for the 1 Nat'l Guardsmen who shot himself in the leg during a scuffle with a violent person, but The Seattle Times article addresses that) and zero forensic reports backing that up... but sure, they're black, so they just gotta act like animals and should be treated as such.
I'm a pre-school teacher. I refuse to despise people of different races and cultures, and if I didn't feel that way, I would have no business teaching other people's children.
I deal with parents and children of all races and economic levels. There are differences for sure, but most negatives could be improved with economics, education, job training, and a willingness to improve their lives and a belief that their lives can be improved.
Tina,
Calm down. You "refuse to despise people of different races and cultures." If you think I was suggesting despising people of different races and cultures you've completely missed the point, and done exactly what I was saying well intentioned liberals so often do in rushing to the aid of shitty culture and shielding it with the race card.
For the umpteenth time there is a difference between race and culture. To make the point: I despise subjugation of women, cannibalism, abuse of children, polygamy and slavery. I also, not surprisingly, despise any culture that condones these behaviors. Is that so hard to understand? Judging culture is not the same as judging race. Can you really not think of a culture that you despise? Do you respect... say... popular culture in Ethiopia that practices "female genital mutilation"? I don't and that doesn't mean I hate Africans either.
Not only can one despise a culture, without bringing race into the picture. One can despise a culture without despising the people of that culture. Wasn't this actually exactly the message of Martin Luther King Jr, preaching in response to white hatred and violence?
I wasn't in the Super Dome. I read the news and draw conclusions. Were things exaggerated? Maybe. I'd love to find out they were. I don't doubt your sources either. This entire argument was based on the fact that the refugees in the Super Dome behaved badly, if that wasn't the case I'd love to know. Honestly in the past 2 years on a liberal blog this was the first I'd heard that these allegations were so grossly exaggerated.
Lastly, I don't worship Rush and I'm no racist. If you scroll down the page, you'll find yet another post where I'm trying to raise money for a candidate by the name of Barack Obama.
Kyle,
I can't argue with your point one bit. You are absolutely right that all sorts of factors play into something like your ACT math score example. Anyone who would try to use some isolated stat like that to "prove" that Jews are categorically better at math than Latinos would be talking out of their ass. This is not what I was saying at all though.
I'm saying that many liberals who hold certain ideals of equality close to their heart, have mistaken the maxim "all people are equal" for "all people should be treated equally." Some (case and point: Tina) are even applying this ideal of equality to cultures, and painting those who disagree as racists.
As I reread this thread I have to say:
Tina,
I'm sure you're a nice person, good teacher and loving parent. But what the heck is this?
"Unlike so many others who spewed their hatred and ignorance, I do not believe that all black people are animals and deserve to be annihilated as some posters have suggested. I refuse to hate an entire race of people or say that all of them are thugs and criminals, and I say this DESPITE being made a victim of black on white crime. And NOTHING blatant racists say will make me hate another race of people or raise my children to hate an entire race of people."
I mean, your comment was addressed to me. Do you think this applies to anything I've said here?
How can we ever start to empower and uplift the inner city if everytime someone says...hey maybe this is a cultural problem, they're labeled a racist and they have to respond to alligations like these you've launched.
As Fred said earlier, this post of mine would have SUNK anyone's politican career faster than soliciting sex in an airport men's room. So how do we expect politicians to address a problem when we make it so damn taboo. No wonder they just continue to ignore it.
Sir Kyle,
Your hypothetical is probably close to the truth. However, why don't you go a little deeper? Why does the Jewish family stick together so well? Why is their medican income so high? Why are many of them so educated?
What you did was offer statistics as to why Jews fare better in school. You gave median family income, average education, sense of family, etc. However, what you FAIL to do is explain why Jews have been able to achieve these things.
Jews were nearly wiped off the European continent only 62 years ago, yet they have built one of the most powerful nations in the world. And yes, I am aware of the support they receive from the United States, but please do not tell me that it is solely because of US aid.
My point is, you cannot just say "well Jews are more educated, earn more money, and stick together better" without giving them credit for getting there. Their culture is one that breeds success. Compare this with the thug culture and it's anti-social components that a lot of you want us to accept, and I think it is obvious that not all CULTURES are created equally.
Now Tina, you are about to be put in the same category as Menchen, which is not a good thing. Please, reread the posts and try to comprehend that when one is comparing culture, they are not being a racist.
Just because I do not think genital mutilation or the stoning of woman for "betrayal" is acceptable, it does not mean that I am a racist.
Robert: This is the first time you and I have commented to each other since this topic began. I believe you have misunderstood me.
Firstly, I am a pretty nice person, a good and caring teacher, and I am a very loving mother.
But I am also pissed off because of the way others-- not you-- have personally attacked me and have chosen to completely disregard actual facts that they find inconvenient.
The first part of my comment was directed solely at you only.
After re-reading my comment here, I should have then addressed the rest of my comment to the oh-so brave Anonymous and Silent Majority, who refused to acknowledge the laundry list of facts I presented and instead simply resorted to personal attacks.
For not clarifying who I was addressing, I apologize.
I lived in New Orleans. I lived in the 12th Ward. The apartment I rented was destroyed, and a friend of mine told me that the apartment beside mine had a gaping hole in the roof where some poor soul had to take an axe and chop their way out of the drowning, rising water. I have several friends who still live there. I do take what happened to that city personally. It was allowed to drown, starve, and burn and nobody cared or came for 5 days.
Unspeakable.
And this is the first time you ever heard of the mass rape and murder claims being falsified?
I remember reading about it online in several news sevices, but most memorably in The Times Picayune (the NOLA newspaper) and in Sept '05 on BBC News.
Here's a link:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/
americas/4292114.stm
The Seattle Times article I referenced explained why and how the false claims came about and why it was later ignored.
Plenty of people thought if they began to tell anyone and everyone who would listen that one of the most heinous crimes imaginable-- the rape of children and dare we speak it--- babies--- was bound to get the attention of someone, hell anyone, to move heaven and earth to get to the Superdome. But it didn't work did it? Nope. It completely backfired.
Instead, it just let people who already have a bias against black people justify their racism by thinking "these animals even rape children" and it allowed black people who already have a bias against white people and/or authority figures and institutions to justify their bias by saying they were left for dead because they were black.
Somewhere in between those 2 lies the truth.
But when people had bands and massage therapists to sooth their frayed nerves in Cali, and an estimated 75,000 citizens were trapped inside the city of New Orleans, and couldn't leave because they had no cars, had no means of magically floating out of the flooded city and were threatened they would be shot if they did somehow leave, and babies and the elderly in New Orleans died or were on the verge of death for 5 days while our president presented a birthday cake to John McCain, laughed it up with senior citizens at one of his "kill Medicare" events, accepted a freaking guitar, and let Brownie do a heckuva job, you can see whose side seems much more believable.
Tina,
I challenge you to find one thing that is racist about anything I have said. I think you are the racist for implying that blacks are incapable of picking themselves up by their boot-straps.
Also, in your last "sentence", you are excusing the rapes and other carnage that took place in NOLA. But I supposed this should not be too surprising considering you tolerate genital mutilatison as a "cultural difference."
Also, as I have said before, please keep your senseless ramblings to a minimum. While I am sure trying to prove a disoriented, illogical points is difficult, any teacher should know the importance of writing concisely.
Your arguments are similar to the child who knows he is caught lying, but continues to spin lie after lie. (Menchen's jumping up and down becuase he actually knows what I'm talking about...PINOCCHIO!!)
Tina,
I hear you.
The entire staff here at The Chief Source was utterly appalled by the handling of Katrina on the federal, state and local level. More than that, we were disgusted by the President's handling of the situation. The incident was truly a national disgrace.
I think that for much of the nation this was a real awakening and that many Americans who were previously on the fence found themselves unable to stomach Bush after Katrina.
For a taste of our opinion on this tragic, response disaster feel free to go back into our archives and look.
BTW, don't listen to SM, please continue to comment.
silent majority: Why dont you go play the "who's the racist" game somewhere else
Tina- you lived thru the disaster in NOLA --my heart goes out to you.
Other than invade Iraq based on lies, I hold the Katrina response by Bushadmin a record low.
Actually, I cant think of one good thing Bushadmin has done for the Nation
she wasn't in Katrina
Petey: I can see from perusing this thread how you would mistakenly think that I went thru Katrina. I did not. I had commented here in previous posts about Katrina that I lived in New Orleans just after graduating from KSU in the late 90s. But for being able to experience that city before Katrina destroyed it, I am forever grateful. Although Silent Minority would have you believe that as a white girl, my time there was spent terrorized and shivering in fear from all of those awful black people, who are, apparently according to him and his vast knowledge of New Orleans and black people, 100% thugs.
Robert: Thanks so kindly, and unfortunately, Monday is my longest day (work, karate lessons for my daughter, dinner slapped together and gobbled down, and then 2 night classes in my Masters program) so I never even got online yesterday. I'll comment now to that human paraquat known as SM... although BM is probably his real name and clearly his content. And given how BM... err... SM has pointed out how clearly stupid and inept I am, I guess I had better have serious discussions with my thesis committee, no?
SM: This will be my last comment to you because trying to hold an intelligent debate with you is not possible because I am the only one USING actual facts and figures while you refuse to provide actual facts. Instead, you just simply lob your opinions and sweeping generalizations and unproven rumors. If I wanted to hear unfounded crap, I'd listen to Rosie O'Donnell spew her 9/11 theories.
This has been addressed already, but I guess we must go over it AGAIN: I made sure that the black criminals who committed a crime against me were prosecuted. I am no apologist for CRIMINALS, no matter what color they are. Yet, you are apparently unable to
r-e-a-d, so I guess I should type slowly for you. If you commit a crime, you will hopefully get caught, and you should pay.
Very simple.
If rumors allege crimes were committed, and no police reports, no Nat'l Guard reports, or no forensic evidence back those rumors up with factual proof that any crimes have been committed, then guess what, genius? No one will be or can be found guilty of a crime.
Sheesh, do you not watch any of the Law & Orders or CSI's?
Yet you allege that the black folks of New Orleans committed mass rapes and murders inside the Superdome.
Proof?
Anyone?
Proof?
That's right.
Ya got none.
And this one just makes me laugh: Prove where you have said anything racist? Your ENTIRE premise is racist, although your "blacks can't behave well in the heat" was the icing on the cake. At no point in my very first comment on this topic when I listed the laundry list of OBVIOUS differences between the shelters of the wildfires and the Superdome did I mention race. AT NO POINT.
I was merely pointing out factual differences between the 2 evacuee shelters.
One WAS at a comfortable 70 degree temp.
One WAS at a sweltering 90+ degree temp in late Aug/ early Sept in the deep South with 30,000 people held for 5 days with no water, food or electricity.
Those 2 statements are factual and do not mention race at all.
Who did mention race?
YOU DID.
And once you tried to turn my factual statement into a lie of "lookie here everybody, Tina is saying that black people can't help but commit crimes in the heat", which was absolutely NOT what I was saying nor implying, I figured, hey, if that was the route you wanted to go, then I could back a position like that because our very own FBI states that more crimes are committed in the hottest temps than at any other time.
But why are you the one who dwells on race as the main difference between the Cali evacuees and the Katrina evacuees?
Because if not, you could not justify your personal opinions, sweeping generalizations and unsubstantiated rumors, which are stated by you here: "What I am asking about is why the New Orleans Superdome was filled with scenes of savagery, rape, etc, yet San Diego's Qualcomm had no violence... I believe it presents a troubling fact about black culture in America."
Firstly: Besides looting, which EVRYONE participated in, including the NOLA cops (although most folks did steal very needed items like food, water, and diapers, but completely unnecessary items for life like widescreen TVs and jewelry were ridiculously lifted, too), what rapes and deaths are you referring to?
Where are the police reports about those rapes?
The Nat'l Guard reports?
The forensic reports? Surely, if babies and small children had been raped or gangraped as was rumored, where is the actual evidence?
Anyone with any sense in their head knows that if the actual rape does not kill the baby or child, certainly reconstructive surgery is required to attempt to physically fix the unspeakable damage that results to the victim.
Don't you think that all of the govt and law enforcement officials and journalists who fell upon the Superdome en masse would have uncovered these destroyed children and babies?
And what about the widespread stories about girls and women being gangraped and having their throats cut? Where exactly did those bodies get hidden to? There were no working toilets, and I'm sure no one thought to bring a chainsaw to hack a body into teeny pieces, so flushing away the bodies was not an option. Hmm... maybe these "black savages" ate 'em, huh?
Isn't it simply amazing that not a single woman, or caregiver or parent of a child or baby has ever reported a rape, gangrape, or attack taking place inside the Superdome?
Yet you claim such savagery took place and then use those baseless rumors to justify your own racism.
Every single death immediately inside and immediately outside the Superdome has been accounted for by the police, Nat'l Guard, and govt.
The grand total?
Six.
Of those, 4 died of natural causes, 1 overdosed and another jumped to his death in an apparent suicide.
An additional 4 bodies were found in the street near the Superdome, not inside it.
At the Morial Convention Center, were 20,000 people took shelter, just 4 bodies were recovered, despite reports of heaps of dead bodies piled inside the building. And of those 4 dead, only one appeared to have been murdered, according to health and law-enforcement officials.
Didja catch that, BM?
ONLY 1 MURDER... and it WAS NOT even at the Superdome.
Add to this, not a single rape or gangrape that supposedly took place inside the Superdome was ever brought to light to any authority figures, and while rape is a crime that many do not want to report, it is NOT plausible that someone would not report the gangrape, rape, or attack on a child or baby or could hide a throat being slit.
And if you choose to refer to the group of British and Aussie students who were in the Superdome and who told all who would listen to them of unspeakable crimes they supposedly witnessed, the media investigated their widespread claims of the rapes of children, and throats they watched be slit, and the hordes of bodies that they personally saw and stepped over inside the Superdome, and every claim turned out to be false.
Could those students have experienced threats made against them?
Certainly.
But outright lying about witnessing rapes, the slitting of throats and masses of murdered corpses does not give them much credibility... especially when there were 1000s of international journalists, police forces, military forces, and forensic teams there who could prove or disprove such claims.
Does thug life exist?
Absolutely.
Is it working for black people?
Not so much.
Thug men lead a life of crime, get imprisoned, are kept out of their women and children's lives, and that life forces black women to raise their children on their own and seek educations or training for themselves if they have any hope of providing some kind of life for their children, further separating themselves from their "left behind" men.
But that still does not back up your claims that thugs dictated the "lawless law" inside the Superdome.
By and large, most of the people inside the Superdome (as has been reported by the Nat'l Guard and the journalists on the ground in NOLA) the evacuees were (albeit pissed off and dehydrated and starving) peaceful and non violent, and at 30,000 strong, could have certainly wrecked havoc or overpowered the few authority forces who were there (as the Nat'l Guard attested to), yet they did not.
But I'm sure these FACTS won't matter to you because they are inconvenient to your own personal opinions.
Too bad. Reality can be a bitch, and it will knock out your unsubstantiated crap everytime.
Ta-ta BM, as well as all of your bravely ball-less Anonymous minions.
Tina, sorry I misunderstood. My attention span is not what it once was.
I visited NO in 2003 and am doggone glad I did. As a visitor, I have strong memories that contradict the depiction that puked from the rightwing propaganda machine that went something like :
New Orleans is populated by bums and losers that DO NOT deserve saving. Or - They just got what they deserved.
Of course many views had racial overtones especially against NO blacks.
I felt realy bad when it was destroyed...but probably not as bad as you did - my heart still goes out
Good luck in your master program and karate (use some on SM)
Black-belt,
Umm it was you who used the differences in heat as one explanation. If you weren't implying that blacks can't behave well in the heat, then I don't know what you were trying to do. I was just trying to interpet your idiocy. Even Sir Robert ripped on you for that.
Also, I gave a link to a newspaper that recounted the horror 12 Australians faced by being in the Superdome. If you do not want to read it, you do not have to.
Also, who in the hell has "forensic evidence"? Maybe you're spending a little too much time with your karate chops.
"Reports of dozens of rapes at both facilities — many allegedly involving small children — may forever remain a question mark. Rape is a notoriously underreported crime under ideal circumstances, and tracking down evidence at this point, with evacuees spread all over the country, will be nearly impossible. The same goes for reports of armed robberies at both sites.
"The British and Australian media are reporting that among those murdered are a 14 year old girl who was gang raped to death over a four hour period. A seven year old boy was raped and murdered. A seven year old girl was raped. Several witnessness reported teenage girls being raped in the bathrooms."
I just quoted two newspaper articles. Are you now saying that the people inside the Superdome are lying? Are YOU the one saying that these poor, destitute blacks are incapable of telling the truth?
And lastly, what I said was that NOLA was a microcosm of the ills that plague the black community. You label me a racist. However, it seems odd that one who excuses the actions of thug culture calls me a racist. By excusing their actions, by talking about "heat", you imply that they are incapable of improving their situations. I think everyone agress that blacks have the same rights as any white. Sixty years ago, that was not the case. Yet, 60 years ago, the rampant fatherlessness, black on black crime, etc did not exist. So tell me, what is your explanation? Do you think Dr. King would fatalistically accept what is going on today? Do you think Malcolm X would? You probably know little about them, you also probably know little of DuBois or Booker T. For if you did, you would know that every single one of them taught the message of self-reliance, of depending on other blacks to make it.
Blacks have a strong history of overcoming adversity. They led rebellions against slavery (Nat Turner/Underground RR), they marched against Jim Crow, they survived the Middle Passage. Now, when they have every right they fought and died for, you are going to say they are incapable of behaving, of attaining a good education, of working hard and supporting their family? You are the typical liberal Malcolm X despised. The type that subtlely implied that blacks are incapable of making it.
MARY KOCHITAMA, Harlem Activist: Malcolm's whole agenda was different. He was about total independence, he was about self-determination, self-reliance...
There has been no proof whatsoever of a rape occurring in the Superdome. There were three deaths within the Dome...2 elderly people and a man who committed suicide. Acts of vandalism, violent assault and drug dealing are also unsubstantiated.
SM...this line in the article should have tipped you off that it was BS:
"Everyone brought their drugs, they brought guns, they brought knives. Soldiers were shot.
To date, there have been no reported deaths or injuries from shootings of any military personel in or around the Superdome. Many in the news media have retracted or corrected earlier reports they made claiming the rumors and stories they initially reported were true - even though they had no facts to back them up.
There was water and Meals Ready to Eat (MRE's) brought in to serve 15,000 for three days. The sanitary conditions declined rapidly.
However...Houston reported a 28% increase in murders 6 months after hurricane Katrina, which has been attributed to gangs that fled NO. Many of the evacuees came from public-housing projects, where gangs engaged in territorial disputes and such crimes as selling drugs. Once connections were re-established, the groups set up drug and prostitution rings and began settling scores, said Police Sergeant Brian Harris, a member of the Gang Murder Squad that Houston formed this year.(souce: Bloomberg news).
Moron who should remain SILENT:
I'll put this comment in easy numbered format so even you can follow along, m'kay?
1. My 5 yr old daughter takes the karate class, NOT me, as I CLEARLY stated, but leave it to a mouthbreathing inbred cretin like you to get the simple facts straight. Please, do the world a favor, and DO NOT BREED.
2. Are you honestly saying that people didn't blatantly tell sensationally scary lies and/or rely upon secondhand accounts and/or spread rumors to try to convince somebody... ANYBODY... that they had better move heaven and earth to get down to New Orleans and the Superdome because oh my God, somebody told somebody who told a neighbor who told somebody else that folks were raping 7 yr olds and even babies in the bathroom and slitting their throats???
Are you really saying that?
These are actual facts for you? Because really, Lord knows that courts never ever have problems relying upon eyewitnesses, huh?
A.Where is the body of that 14 yr old girl who you claim was raped to death over a 4 hr period?
B.Where is the body of that 7 yr old boy who you claim was raped and murdered?
C.A 7 yr old girl was raped? Did her parents just sit back and watch? Did they just decide "oh well" and let it go unreported afterwards and hope that her obviously savagely attacked and too tiny for sex bleeding body would just somehow take care of itself?
D.Several witnessness reported teenage girls being raped in the bathrooms. Why are there no reports of those rapes? Why did not a single parent of those teens either try to prevent the attacks or report the attacks? Did the parents just figure the girls would get over it? Or maybe you'll try to claim that the parents actually joined in and helped the rapists rape the girls, huh?
3. Did everyone in NOLA join forces to cover it up? Ummm, by using your twisted logic, I guess so.
4. That would then mean that secondhand accounts by scared and/or pissed off citizens and students, who all swore that they saw things, were 100% truthful
A. For example, when it comes to the Aussie students, they all swore that they personally saw the raped body of a 4 & and a half yr old little girl, who had a SLIT THROAT, and that her body was then stuffed into a trashcan.
B. Now keep in mind that the little girl's body was nowhere to be found, and not a single person has ever come forward to find her poor body, but these citizens and students swore it was true, so it must be.
C. Isn't it even more amazing that they knew just from looking at her body that she was FOUR and a HALF yrs old?
Simply uncanny.
Perhaps they should take up summer jobs working at a carnival where they can guess people's ages because their abilities are AMAZING.
D. Isn't it also amazing that there are soooo many slit throats? Again... simply amazing. Are you noticing a distinct rumor-mill pattern here?
5. I guess that these reputable news sources were in on the coverup, huh?
A. THE GUARDIAN:
Murder and rape - fact or fiction? by Gary Younge in Baton Rouge on Sept. 6, 2005
B. THE TIMES-PICAYUNE:
Reports of anarchy at Superdome overstated by Brian Thevenot and Gordon Russell on Sept 26, 2005
C. NY Times:
Fear Exceeded Crime's Reality in New Orleans by By Jim Dwyer and Christopher Drew on
Sept 29, 2005
D. REASON:
The Deadly Bigotry of Low Expectations? Did the rumor mill help kill Katrina victims? by
Matt Welch on Sept 6, 2005
E.INTRNATL HERALD TRIBUNE: After Katrina, crimes of the imagination by Jim Dwyer and Christopher Drew on Sept 29, 2005
F. ASSOCIATED PRESS:
Reports of New Orleans Violence Exaggerated by Michelle Roberts on Sept 27, 2005
G. BBC NEWS:
New Orleans violence 'overstated' by Laura Smith-Spark on Sept 29, 2005
6. But you're right: The unsubstantiated rumors, second and third and fourthhand accounts and outright lies you rely upon to justify your racism are the truth.
Who knew that the Nat'l Guard, the police, the state forensic teams, and the 1000s of international journalists had an agenda to lie?
AMAZING.
7. If you honestly think for one second that a parent would let the savage rape of one of their children or babies go unpunished and unreported, or of you think that a small child or baby who has been savagely raped could just shake off the attack off and somehow just get over it and leave it unreported and not seek medical attention, you are more retarded than I thought.
Again: Please, do the world a favor, and DO NOT BREED.
A. I'm serious here: Are you for freaking real??? Do you truly believe raped small children and babies can just get over it and not seek serious medical attention such as reconstructive surgery???
B. Grown women often require reconstructive surgery after being raped. WTF do you think a rape or a gangrape would do the body of a child or baby???
8. And if you do not know what forensics are, perhaps you do need to sit down and watch Law & Order or CSI.
A. Forensic teams were brought in by the state to collect the evidence they thought would be there of mass rapes and murders.
B. Forensic teams do rape kits on all of those raped babies and small children, do autopsies on the bodies of the females who had been supposedly gangraped and had their throats slit, and try to figure out how all of those piles and piles of corpses had been murdered.
C. EXCEPT THOSE MASS RAPES, SLIT THROATS AND MURDERS DID NOT EXIST.
D. Instead, those forensic teams collected the few bodies that were inside the Superdome and directly outside the Superdome, and determined that the causes of death were natural and one was of an apparant suicide.
E. Those forensic teams also worked on collecting the bodies that were trapped inside houses and were found drowned on the flooded streets.
F. Those forensic teams were in charge of putting them into cold storage areas and tried to obtain identification.
9. If not forensic teams, who in the hell do you think