I'm Going to Count to Three: 1, 2, WHACK.
You are sitting at a restaurant, sipping a glass of wine, having a nice conversation with the person sitting across from you; the next thing you know a snotty nosed kid with ketchupy fingers and a chocolate milk moustache starts climbing over the booth, running around the restaurant, and throwing pickles at the server. You overhear mom say,
"Johnny, I'm going to count to three: One.... Two.... Johnny. Come on; we're trying to have a nice dinner. You don't want to go to time-out, do you?"
AGHHH!!!
No, I clearly don't have children of my own. But I was raised to know better, and damnit, my kids will know better, too. Know why? Because I was afraid of getting spanked.
There were a handful of times in my childhood that I remember getting swatted by my parents-- not beaten, not abused-- spanked. I deserved it. And I learned my lesson, and didn't act-up in the same way again.
The Massachusetts legislature is considering a bill that would charge parents with abuse and/or neglect for hitting any child under the age of 18; if passed, Massachusetts would become the first U.S. state to ban corporal punishment by parents. The proposal even goes so far as to include pinching, washing a child's mouth out with soap, and using undilluted Tobasco sauce.
Talk about a slippery slope! What's next? Giving your child a bad haircut?
We all know that different behaviors deserve different types of discipline-- I just think (reasonable) spanking should be an option for parents.
By Annie - 11/29/2007
33 Comments:
Annie,
I am extremely PRO-SPANKING. Operant conditioning is the key to discipline.
Assuming that spanking will be illegal by the time I have kids though, I plan on having a "black room" in the house. That is a room with absolutely nothing in it, no furniture, black walls, black carpet. The room is for nothing but "timeouts," and they're divvied out in 30 minute blocks, like solitary confinement.
I wonder what party is pushing this bill?
Spanking - very slippery slope. In my childhood, we knew where we stood and what we should NOT do and we acted accordingly. Maybe this had to do with having respect for authority and also that all our fathers had been trained to kill in WWII.
In the 70's , I raised my kids not to annoy anybody and they had manners in public. Mostly, I told them if they misbehaved - they would have to leave and that I would NOT take them back there.
I dont think its so tough to accomplish that (sans spanking) if only there were some REAL parents around today.
The stories that my HS teacher daughter tells me about the young today are astounding - I attribute most of the probs to NO parenting / or parenting of a sort as a dog owner letting the dog run feral.
Good post Annie
Robert I agree that pain is a very strong motivator...although I think that good parenting would require little or no spanking
Of course, I speak from the standpoint of a WELL DISCIPLINED upbringing -- Nuns and Catholic priests there to set me straight and My parents, aunts uncles... / Father Seabee Corpsman of WWII & GE Executive..My whole family is rich in values and discipline - I am happy to say
Wish I could pass the concept to the youth of Today!
PS : Nuns were issued 3 ft long wooden pointers that they were trained to weild as Kun-Fu martial artists
That GOT my attention
I am anti-spanking, but also anti this law.
But Annie, I think your problems at dinner can be resolved with a law I would like passed: NO CHILDREN in any real restaurant. Kids should be quarantined to their home, or Applebees equivalents. (kidding on passing the law...serious on the fact that parents should follow this unwritten rule)
I support people's right to spank their kids, but I don't know if I could actually do it. I guess I wouldn't know how to do it. How hard do you spank them? When do you administer the spanking? I could go on and on with a list of questions. I'd have to read a book on it before doing it.
Kyle,
Read a book on it?! Let me save you the time:
The kid mouths off. You smack em on their ass. If they aren't crying real tears, smack harder. If their ass bleeds or bursts into flames, smack lighter. Repeat until said behavior stops.
Assuming that spanking will be illegal by the time I have kids though, I plan on having a "black room" in the house. That is a room with absolutely nothing in it, no furniture, black walls, black carpet.
Will you have a water board in there as well?
Seriously...I spanked my kids when they were younger. A little bit of pain goes a long way, and you cannot reason with little humans whose brains are not fully wired to be logical.
But Annie, I think your problems at dinner can be resolved with a law I would like passed: NO CHILDREN in any real restaurant.
See if you feel the same way when you and your wife have kids and you'd like to take them out and have a nice meal in a great restaurant, assuming your not sterile.
Of course Chuck won't spank. He probably is the type that will enroll his children in Little Leagues where no one wins or loses and where Little Johnny never makes an out.
Massachusetts should be severed from the Union. It is one of the most intrusive pieces of proposed legislation I have ever heard of. Why do all of these "experts" think they always know what is best? Look at their failed policies with the poor.
I wonder how these "experts" explain the lack of discipline that is so evident in much of our youth today. Even though the obvious answer is a lack of parenting and family involvement, they will do study after study and conjure up some ridiculous reason.
Unbelievable, taking away our right to effectively parent. There are already child abuse laws that protect against the abuses of spanking.
Next thing you know they will seek to take away our right to defend ourselves...
russ, i won't change. i will get a babysitter for special occassions. my future neice/nephews are great products/examples of good parenting. and they never take the kids to normal restaurants....because kids don't belong there. it is rude and it creates unrealistic demands on the kids behavior.
silent, funny. (but not true on the little league....but it was funny)
I don't think this bill will go anywhere. Even common sense liberals like me know this is stupid.
I'm glad that no one has written in complaining about how the government might take their kids or lock them up if they spank.
My wife is a county childrens' services worker. She agrees that the problem with people is that they don't spank soon enough. Seriously, if parents wait until the kid is older (say 5 years old), the discipline has less meaning. Parents need to spank toddlers, not to hurt, but to get their attention.
As a caseworker, she had to teach abusive parents (the ones who were able to keep their kids) how to discipline smartly. Use an open hand, don't use weapons, don't hit so hard that you leave marks.
The law does take kids out of homes because some parents use extension cords, wire hangers, or belts. My mom rarely used a wooden spoon, but she didn't beat us up when she did.
That's where people cross the line, and government has to act. Cranky anti-government complainers like to forget about the wounds of battered kids when they bitch about the decline of society.
Hey Folks,
Isnt it all about the children? If you discipline them, espically in front of others you will damage their self-esteem. We cant have that.
Spanking should be an option for parents? It should be mandatory! That's a bit of a stretch, I know, but the thought being- if children aren't taught to respect their parents who will they respect? No one- likely, not even themselves. Talk about damaging a childs self esteem.
Spanking? Its like arguing what tool to use to accomplish the task at hand.
Listen:::: If you are a committed parent and work very hard at raising the children properly that you love ---You will Not need to spank their little butts into looking like two little Jap Flags! If fact you wont need to spank them at all if you do your parenting duties right.
As far as the restaurant thing - banning or not taking kids to a restaurant ....the kiddies will be little well behaved angels there too if you are a good parent.
A Petey paradox: I never had to spank my kids - I did have to beat the shit out of Tommy when he grabbed my sister
Heres a tip : just the threat of a child knowing that you will greatly disapprove of an action should be enough...of course this is all irrelevant if one is a half assed parent
spanking, like punishment in general, is not the panacea for good behavior. for instance, if punishment were so effective we wouldn't have crime.
i don't support outlawing spanking, but do i think there is an absolute correlation between miscreant youth and lack of physical punishment? no more than i think there is an absolute correlation between well behaved kids and the use of physical punishment.
yeah, it could help, but i could see where it made things worse, too. some kids may fall into line. others may become more of a problem. other kids may not be affected much one way or the other.
Annie,
Right on!
Let's face it -- when we grew up, we were taught to respect our elders, and had a healthy fear of our parents. We knew that if we didn't show respect for our parents and other adults, there would be consequences.
Nowadays, not only do kids have no fear of their parents, they often have no respect for others. This is carrying over, and creating a complete lack of respect for any form of authority.
If you don't believe me, just look at the recent case of Tyree Feaster and his fellow V-Not gang members, who was involved in the shooting at the Cage. Rather than follow the 'norms' of society, or cooperate with the police and prosecutors, they thought they were above the law (and as at least Tyree learned, he is not).
No one is saying that you need to beat or abuse your kids, but there is nothing wrong with a spanking when a child deserves it.
Otherwise, if kids don't learn to respect others, we will just continue to have generations of American children who have no respect for others, and no fear of actual consequences for their actions.
Oh one final note on Corporal Punishment.
I wish for legislation that would free- me- up to take a shotgun to those that blare that window rattling low/decibal spaceshuttle /blasting off noise from their "rides" @ circa 3:00 AM...
petey
NAH,thats TOO strong ----> maybe just cutting off of their ears in the city park
a different anonymous,
"if punishment were so effective we wouldn't have crime."
I seldom say this, but damn... that's just plain stupid.
robert,
yeah it's stupid. it was meant to be stupid...to make a point about how stupid i thought it was to hinge, it seemed to me, so much of badly behaved kids on the lack of spanking.
it being my first post, however, i didn't want to come out and say "that's stupid" and instead tried to rely on an analogy to make the point. analogies can be tricky, and often fall on their faces.
:)
so to try again:
i don't support the law. nor do i think that more spanking would necessarily lead to more well behaved kids. it might...it might not.
i agree with petey, as he promotes a more rounded approach to raising well behaved kids. it sounded like spanking was one of the options, just not "the" option.
and even there, that still might not work.
a different anonymous,
Sorry. I shouldn't have been so damn rude. I talk about these badly behaved kids who are in need of a good spanking, but apparently I have some behavior issue myself. I would encourage you to continue to comment and promise to not be so rude in the future.
That said, discipline relies on both positive and negative reinforcement. And in order to work, the negatives need to be just that: negative. The kid needs to dread them. I'm not for hitting kids with crowbars, but these 20-second time outs are a complete joke.
robert,
why thanks!
i wasn't put out, so don't worry about it.
you knows what's funny about it? i had problems wording the analogy, changing it several times and mulling it over even more. and i still wasn't entirely pleased. rereading it, it's flawed and didn't put across very well the point that i was trying to make.
making an analogy is like baking an angel food cake...
and i agree that both positive and negative reenforcement should be used, with the blend and type adjusted for the particular situation and kids/parents involved.
hell, even in my family, what worked for a brother didn't always work with me, and visa versa. and there were 4 children. i didn't envy my mom and dad in this regard.
we weren't bad kids, but we *were* kids.
again, thank you for your words and your invite to continue posting.
Kids need a good crack ever now and then. It's imperative to establishing a chain of command. As in, I am in command. Plus, kids don't usually listen. They need to be informed both verbally and physically that they must comply.
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