It's sad -- she came from a region in desperate need for solid leadership, and Benazir Bhutto represented one of the last chances Pakistan had for solid leadership.
That is a country and region that will not know peace until they can first know stability, and a country that will not know stability until they can first have fair and free elections.
Unfortunately, with each bombing and assassination, the hope for a free and peaceful Pakistan is fading further and further away.
Forgive me if I do not weep over her death. It is a sad commentary on the stae of our world and the nature of man that this happened. But she was not the savior of Pakistan or a beacon of democracy but rather a symbol of corruption. Why did she feel the need to return? Perhaps using the system so she, her family and cronies could become wealthy beyond beleive through using their positon to control the levers of commerce as well as outright corruption was not enough. It has been said that power is an aphrodisiac.
I was horrified to hear this tragic news this morning. Benazir Bhutto was a courageous woman for whom I had great admiration. The first woman elected to head a modern Muslim state, she was no stranger to violence and tragedy. Her father was assassinated and later her brothers would die under mysterious circumstances. She recognized her unique position and seized every opportunity to prepare herself for the life she clearly knew she would lead. She studied at Harvard and Oxford, completing a thoroughly western education which included the studies of comparative politics, economics, international law and diplomacy.
She had previously campaigned on women’s issues including social and health concerns, discrimination against women (though was unsuccessful at completing such reforms). Her battles were courageous in a society where women are generally treated as second class citizens.
She faced exile and corruption charges, victoriously returned to Pakistan only to be put under house arrest. And now, days before a free election in which coalitions may have been formed she is assisnated. Truly a martyr.
While there have been claims that her government once supported the Taliban she had spoken harshly about the Taliban and terrorism in the recent campaign and suggested that she could do a better job cracking down on terrorism than Pervez Musharraf. I can't imagine that she could have done any worse. Musharraf is careful to never reveal his true allegiances, always playing one side off the other.
I am deeply saddened both by her death and by the unfortunate knowledge that retaliatory violence is certain.
I can't get over the striking similarities between the Bhutto dynasty and the Gandhi/Nehru dynasty (as well as the Kennedy dynasty).
I can’t pretend to understand the workings of the semi-presidential form of government but clearly it does not provide for the stability that seems to be needed in many of the contentious countries that choose to utilize it (i.e. France, Russia, Sri Lanka, Somalia).
Perhaps one day India and Pakistan will stop fighting amongst themselves over border skirmishes and will allow states to break into smaller countries (i.e. the former Yugoslavia).
Folks, Before we give her martyr status and inducte her into the- "sefless fighter for democracy hall of fame" -let us seperate the rhetoric from her(and her families) actions.
Fred, I regard you as someone who likes to be right all the time and peppers his opinions with facts and figures from various sources. Which makes your Gandhi comment all the more surprising! I said Gandhi/Nehru dynasty, not the legacy of Mohandas Gandhi. I was referring to Prime Minister Pandit Nehru, Prime Minister Indira Gandhi (daugher of Pandit Nehru, assassinated), Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi (grandson of Pandit, son of Indira, assassinated) and Sonia Gandhi (widow of Pandit and current President of the Indian Congress).
While I admired Benazir Bhutto I would never put her on the same pedestal as icons such as Mohandas Gandhi.
Chandra, Yes like most of us I do like to be right. I have been proven wrong and uninformed occasionaly here and have admitted when my facts were wrong or I misunderstood someone's point. I agree there is a similarity between the Gandhi/Nehru family and the Bhuttos that is based in the first generation being nationalistic charasmatic leaders followed by generations of family members involved in the countries fortunes and victims of assassinations. Were we differ is in our evaluation of Benazir Bhutto and I will stick with my analogy and apoligize for assuming you were putting the Bhuttos on the same level as Ghandi(or the Kennedy's, though I ignored that one)
Thanks Fred ;) I always enjoy your views and I appreciate that you are human and may, on occasion, make errors (though not often I'm sure)! And let me retract my statement that Bhutto was a martyr and clarify that she will be a martyr in the eyes of the PPP and her supporters.
I do not think that Benazir Bhutto was selfless or saintly but I do admire the courage that it must take to 1) be an outspoken descenting voice in a country rife with political violence; 2) to be a woman doing so (and even more so to campaign on a platform of women's rights).
It would have been easy for her to emigrate to a Western country and live in peace but she chose to stay, be exiled, and then return to continue the fight. No politician is selfless but I think that some are moreso than others.
So, does anybody have any arguements in favor of the semi-presidential form of government? Finland seems to make it work.
Jesus Fred, the woman's body isn't even cold yet and you just couldn't wait show what a smarty pants you are about her former financial messes. The fact is she was the opposition voice and a leading force for democracy in Pakistan, The situation from here on out in the region is much more perilous and that's what matters.
How many candidates running for president today from either party have this woman's courage ?
Someone? Anyone?
Fred's comment "Perhaps using the system so she, her family and cronies could become wealthy beyond beleive(sic) through using their positon(sic) to control the levers of commerce as well as outright corruption was not enough".
That could have just as easily been a description of George W. Bush and Dick Cheney. who Fred voted for in spite his oft stated revulsion to such folks.
I have registered Bhutto's assassination and have to say that I am sad but not surprised in any way.
She had a lions share of guts to do what she did and her death will further continue the violent freakshow there in a volatile nuclear/bomb totin nation.
Its so damn difficult to understand how things work in that part of the world - I suppose its anybody's guess what the best leader / best political part would be
Her story is amazing. To answer Menck's Q: No, her courage is unmatched.
But since our nominees were brought up, I will touch on something Obama's advisor said today:
"Barack Obama had the judgment to oppose the war in Iraq, and he warned at the time it would divert us from Afghanistan and Al Qaeda, and now we see the effect of that. Al Qaeda's resurgent, they're a powerful force now in Pakistan, they may have been involved ... I think his judgment was good. Senator Clinton made a different judgment."
May not have been the most tackful timing by his advisor. And I don't think he is implying Hillary killed Bhutto, but still, I think the point is a good reminder of how damn dumb the Iraq war was....that Hillary supported.
It was a mistake to "trust" the President, the PNAC and all the front men with their propaganda campaign to invade Iraq , which by the way, they had all planned,manned, and funded a long time before 9-11. 9-11 was just the "convenient" legitimate cover.
But the fact is that many believed Gen Powell and GWB and BIG Dick all of which, in the wake of 9-11 were supposedly credible persons.
Who would have known at that time (9-11) that they were just a lowlife pack of liars?
So , I am saying, that it may be a mistake to judge a candidate soley on his vote just post 9-11...maybe, more important is how they feel today and WHAT they say about said mistake in judgement
BTW Chuck, GREAT comment about Al Queda/ Pakistan...I think thats reasonable to believe that, had we focused on Al Queda sans the Iraq fiasco - things would have benn much MUCH BETTER for Uncle Sam and Indeed the world
Round and round it goes - where it stops ---nobody knows
So let me get this right...Benazir Bhutto helps bring the Taliban into power in the late '90's and Sharia Law in the strictest sense of the word is imposed in Pakistan. Hurt most by this are women, but Bhutto saw the Taliban as a stabilizing force, so she supports them financially and militarily.
One of the most prominant supporters of the Taliban at the time is one Osama Bin Laden. OBL becomes the poster child for terrorism, second only to Anwar Sadat - who ends up winning a Nobel Peace Prize. OBL can, however, lay claim to the fact that he is personally responsible for organizing the greatest act of terrorism on US soil. The same man who is quoted as saying:
America appeared so mighty ... but it was actually weak and cowardly. Look at Vietnam, look at Lebanon. Whenever soldiers start coming home in body bags, Americans panic and retreat. Such a country needs only to be confronted with two or three sharp blows, then it will flee in panic, as it always has. ... It cannot stand against warriors of faith who do not fear death.
He's pegged liberals...something you all have to admit.
Bhutto gets vocal after her self-imposed exile and starts speaking out against terrorism. Finally, she is assassinated by someone who I am sure will be linked to the Taliban or Al Qaeda.
Irony.
There are obvious similarities to the US's support of the Taliban during their war with the Soviets. Similar to our support of Saddam Hussein while Iraq was at war with Iran.
That old saying, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is garbage.
Which leads to my question...why would ANYONE want to be President of ANY country? You are damned if you do, and damned if you don't.
I'm with Fred on this one. It's sad that she was murdered, but the American Media seems to be forgetting both of her terms as Prime Minister was failures plagued with corruption. She wasn't (or isnt) the fix to Pakistans problems. Let's hope the new opposition leader is a little bit different.
God only knows what would be best for Pakistan and for the region,
That doesnt discount that this woman had guts
Russ, I read your comment with an open mind and then see this: "He's (OBL?) pegged liberals...something you all have to admit"
I just want to tell you that I have seen persons who you would pigeon hole as "liberals" who were as brave as Patton and had the moral convictions of Jesus.
When I was a kid, Nuns who had escaped atrocities in Europe had told me about saintly acts of bravery that "LIBERALS" had performed for their fellow man.
I also personnally know one "LIBERAL" who was also a homosexual, who won the Navy Cross for heroism at Chosin Reservoir- Korea
Thousands of Children and Grandchildren and great grandchildren of LIBERALS are presently defending your ass
So, if you would get off you bigotted kick and just admit that Liberals are not SATANIC...and also remember that Jesus is a LIBERAL ----your views and comments may contribute just a little more that spite.
Petey...do not put words in my mouth. I have never questioned the patriotism of liberals who have served in the armed forces. I merely said Obama's comments sound like many antiwar liberals comments today.
25 Comments:
It's sad -- she came from a region in desperate need for solid leadership, and Benazir Bhutto represented one of the last chances Pakistan had for solid leadership.
That is a country and region that will not know peace until they can first know stability, and a country that will not know stability until they can first have fair and free elections.
Unfortunately, with each bombing and assassination, the hope for a free and peaceful Pakistan is fading further and further away.
Forgive me if I do not weep over her death. It is a sad commentary on the stae of our world and the nature of man that this happened. But she was not the savior of Pakistan or a beacon of democracy but rather a symbol of corruption.
Why did she feel the need to return? Perhaps using the system so she, her family and cronies could become wealthy beyond beleive through using their positon to control the levers of commerce as well as outright corruption was not enough. It has been said that power is an aphrodisiac.
I was horrified to hear this tragic news this morning. Benazir Bhutto was a courageous woman for whom I had great admiration.
The first woman elected to head a modern Muslim state, she was no stranger to violence and tragedy.
Her father was assassinated and later her brothers would die under mysterious circumstances. She recognized her unique position and seized every opportunity to prepare herself for the life she clearly knew she would lead. She studied at Harvard and Oxford, completing a thoroughly western education which included the studies of comparative politics, economics, international law and diplomacy.
She had previously campaigned on women’s issues including social and health concerns, discrimination against women (though was unsuccessful at completing such reforms). Her battles were courageous in a society where women are generally treated as second class citizens.
She faced exile and corruption charges, victoriously returned to Pakistan only to be put under house arrest. And now, days before a free election in which coalitions may have been formed she is assisnated. Truly a martyr.
While there have been claims that her government once supported the Taliban she had spoken harshly about the Taliban and terrorism in the recent campaign and suggested that she could do a better job cracking down on terrorism than Pervez Musharraf. I can't imagine that she could have done any worse. Musharraf is careful to never reveal his true allegiances, always playing one side off the other.
I am deeply saddened both by her death and by the unfortunate knowledge that retaliatory violence is certain.
I can't get over the striking similarities between the Bhutto dynasty and the Gandhi/Nehru dynasty (as well as the Kennedy dynasty).
I can’t pretend to understand the workings of the semi-presidential form of government but clearly it does not provide for the stability that seems to be needed in many of the contentious countries that choose to utilize it (i.e. France, Russia, Sri Lanka, Somalia).
Perhaps one day India and Pakistan will stop fighting amongst themselves over border skirmishes and will allow states to break into smaller countries (i.e. the former Yugoslavia).
Folks,
Before we give her martyr status and inducte her into the- "sefless
fighter for democracy hall of fame" -let us seperate the rhetoric from her(and her families) actions.
Chandra,
Comparing her family with Gandhi is like comparing Ken Lay to Mother Teresa
Fred,
I regard you as someone who likes to be right all the time and peppers his opinions with facts and figures from various sources. Which makes your Gandhi comment all the more surprising! I said Gandhi/Nehru dynasty, not the legacy of Mohandas Gandhi.
I was referring to Prime Minister Pandit Nehru, Prime Minister Indira Gandhi (daugher of Pandit Nehru, assassinated), Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi (grandson of Pandit, son of Indira, assassinated) and Sonia Gandhi (widow of Pandit and current President of the Indian Congress).
While I admired Benazir Bhutto I would never put her on the same pedestal as icons such as Mohandas Gandhi.
Chandra,
Yes like most of us I do like to be right. I have been proven wrong and uninformed occasionaly here and have admitted when my facts were wrong or I misunderstood someone's point.
I agree there is a similarity between the Gandhi/Nehru
family and the Bhuttos that is based in the first generation being nationalistic charasmatic leaders followed by generations of family members involved in the countries fortunes and victims of assassinations.
Were we differ is in our evaluation of Benazir Bhutto and I will stick with my analogy and apoligize for assuming you were putting the Bhuttos on the same level as Ghandi(or the Kennedy's, though I ignored that one)
Thanks Fred ;) I always enjoy your views and I appreciate that you are human and may, on occasion, make errors (though not often I'm sure)! And let me retract my statement that Bhutto was a martyr and clarify that she will be a martyr in the eyes of the PPP and her supporters.
I do not think that Benazir Bhutto was selfless or saintly but I do admire the courage that it must take to 1) be an outspoken descenting voice in a country rife with political violence; 2) to be a woman doing so (and even more so to campaign on a platform of women's rights).
It would have been easy for her to emigrate to a Western country and live in peace but she chose to stay, be exiled, and then return to continue the fight. No politician is selfless but I think that some are moreso than others.
So, does anybody have any arguements in favor of the semi-presidential form of government? Finland seems to make it work.
Jesus Fred, the woman's body isn't even cold yet and you just couldn't wait show what a smarty pants you are about her former financial messes. The fact is she was the opposition voice and a leading force for democracy in Pakistan, The situation from here on out
in the region is much more perilous and that's what matters.
I had a feeling Fred would respond like this..Tell me, how does it feel to always be "that guy"? And by "that guy" I mean asshole.
How many candidates running for president today from either party have this woman's courage ?
Someone? Anyone?
Fred's comment "Perhaps using the system so she, her family and cronies could become wealthy beyond beleive(sic) through using their positon(sic) to control the levers of commerce as well as outright corruption was not enough".
That could have just as easily been a description of George W. Bush and Dick Cheney. who Fred voted for in spite his oft stated revulsion to such folks.
Go figure.
I have registered Bhutto's assassination and have to say that I am sad but not surprised in any way.
She had a lions share of guts to do what she did and her death will further continue the violent freakshow there in a volatile nuclear/bomb totin nation.
Its so damn difficult to understand how things work in that part of the world - I suppose its anybody's guess what the best leader / best political part would be
Money talks and violence walks
Geez Fred did you vote for the Deserter and Big Dick?
Her story is amazing. To answer Menck's Q: No, her courage is unmatched.
But since our nominees were brought up, I will touch on something Obama's advisor said today:
"Barack Obama had the judgment to oppose the war in Iraq, and he warned at the time it would divert us from Afghanistan and Al Qaeda, and now we see the effect of that. Al Qaeda's resurgent, they're a powerful force now in Pakistan, they may have been involved ... I think his judgment was good. Senator Clinton made a different judgment."
May not have been the most tackful timing by his advisor. And I don't think he is implying Hillary killed Bhutto, but still, I think the point is a good reminder of how damn dumb the Iraq war was....that Hillary supported.
It was a mistake to "trust" the President, the PNAC and all the front men with their propaganda campaign to invade Iraq , which by the way, they had all planned,manned, and funded a long time before 9-11. 9-11 was just the "convenient" legitimate cover.
But the fact is that many believed Gen Powell and GWB and BIG Dick all of which, in the wake of 9-11 were supposedly credible persons.
Who would have known at that time (9-11) that they were just a lowlife pack of liars?
So , I am saying, that it may be a mistake to judge a candidate soley on his vote just post 9-11...maybe, more important is how they feel today and WHAT they say about said mistake in judgement
BTW Chuck, GREAT comment about Al Queda/ Pakistan...I think thats reasonable to believe that, had we focused on Al Queda sans the Iraq fiasco - things would have benn much MUCH BETTER for Uncle Sam and Indeed the world
Round and round it goes - where it stops ---nobody knows
Unrelated:
I was talking to many Amish recently. And they are a most united Republican bloc.
Seems that they believe that the Republicans are the "moral" candidates, ...due to the abortion stance, i reckon.
I guess the Amish dont take into account the immorality of lying, stealing, cheating, warring....on...on...ad nauseum
A few of them have told me that they think Iraq needs whats happening because "those" people "over there" are EVIL
So much for pacifism ---- Throw their asses in the ARMY!
So let me get this right...Benazir Bhutto helps bring the Taliban into power in the late '90's and Sharia Law in the strictest sense of the word is imposed in Pakistan. Hurt most by this are women, but Bhutto saw the Taliban as a stabilizing force, so she supports them financially and militarily.
One of the most prominant supporters of the Taliban at the time is one Osama Bin Laden. OBL becomes the poster child for terrorism, second only to Anwar Sadat - who ends up winning a Nobel Peace Prize. OBL can, however, lay claim to the fact that he is personally responsible for organizing the greatest act of terrorism on US soil. The same man who is quoted as saying:
America appeared so mighty ... but it was actually weak and cowardly. Look at Vietnam, look at Lebanon. Whenever soldiers start coming home in body bags, Americans panic and retreat. Such a country needs only to be confronted with two or three sharp blows, then it will flee in panic, as it always has. ... It cannot stand against warriors of faith who do not fear death.
He's pegged liberals...something you all have to admit.
Bhutto gets vocal after her self-imposed exile and starts speaking out against terrorism. Finally, she is assassinated by someone who I am sure will be linked to the Taliban or Al Qaeda.
Irony.
There are obvious similarities to the US's support of the Taliban during their war with the Soviets. Similar to our support of Saddam Hussein while Iraq was at war with Iran.
That old saying, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is garbage.
Which leads to my question...why would ANYONE want to be President of ANY country? You are damned if you do, and damned if you don't.
I'm with Fred on this one. It's sad that she was murdered, but the American Media seems to be forgetting both of her terms as Prime Minister was failures plagued with corruption.
She wasn't (or isnt) the fix to Pakistans problems. Let's hope the new opposition leader is a little bit different.
God only knows what would be best for Pakistan and for the region,
That doesnt discount that this woman had guts
Russ, I read your comment with an open mind and then see this: "He's (OBL?) pegged liberals...something you all have to admit"
I just want to tell you that I have seen persons who you would pigeon hole as "liberals" who were as brave as Patton and had the moral convictions of Jesus.
When I was a kid, Nuns who had escaped atrocities in Europe had told me about saintly acts of bravery that "LIBERALS" had performed for their fellow man.
I also personnally know one "LIBERAL" who was also a homosexual, who won the Navy Cross for heroism at Chosin Reservoir- Korea
Thousands of Children and Grandchildren and great grandchildren of LIBERALS are presently defending your ass
So, if you would get off you bigotted kick and just admit that Liberals are not SATANIC...and also remember that Jesus is a LIBERAL ----your views and comments may contribute just a little more that spite.
For the New Year---May the New Deal be with you
Petey...do not put words in my mouth. I have never questioned the patriotism of liberals who have served in the armed forces. I merely said Obama's comments sound like many antiwar liberals comments today.
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