Oct 17 - 46/45 - McCain +01
Add handgun to school supply list
I feel fortunate that, while I was an undergrad, I never worried that someone might enter my classroom and open fire on the students. Clearly, this is a concern on campuses across the U.S. This week, Oklahama's State Reps reacted by passing legislation that would permit people with specialized firearm training to carry concealed weapons on Oklahoma's college campuses. The Rep who introduced the legislation, deemed it a commonsense step to expand Oklahoma's concealed weapons law to combat campus violence. The idea of such a bill raises many questions for me. First, I wonder whether legislation like this could deter would-be mass murderers from opening fire on their classmates for fear that their plan would be thwarted by an armed classmate. If a person has such a plan, will he or she care that someone may be armed? If a person reaches such a point of desperation, it seems that he or she isn't planning to leave the scene alive. Will it matter that someone else may kill them? Will we soon hear stories of drunken students opening fire on one another at keggers? Or will these armed students be able to limit the number of victims by shooting the perpetrator before he unloads a second or third round?On a similar note, this week the U.S. Supreme Court heard oral arguments on D.C.'s ban on handguns (D.C. v. Heller). The crux of the debate concerns whether the 2nd amendment provides for gun ownership as an individual right or a collective one - subject to possibly strict government regulation. The Supreme Court last visited this issue in 1939. The Supreme Court's ruling, which could be released in late June, could settle this dispute which has been unresolved since the Bill of Rights was enacted in 1791. For the past 31 years, D.C.'s handgun ban has prevented most citizens from owning and keeping handguns. Among major U.S. cities, Chicago is the only other city with such a ban. Last year, a federal appeals court held that the ban was unconstitutional. The court's ruling marked the first time an appeals court had found a gun law unconstitutional on Second Amendment grounds. A recent CNN poll reflects that 65% of Americans believe the 2nd Am. guarantees each person the right to own a gun, while 31% said no. Stay tuned - this ruling could completely overhaul cities' attempts to limit gun possession. If I were a betting woman, I would say that D.C. will no longer have such a ban.
By Sophie - 3/20/2008
20 Comments:
Not many people mention what happened at Case Western Reserve years ago but I remember it and it made me think twice about being on campus.
you can buy a gun in DC, the notion that handgun bans work is absurd, it only stops people from having them legally.
Simply: More Handguns = More Shots
you know what, I have concealed carry, I live in Akron and I am almost always armed. It is a matter of self defense anymore--the protection of myself & my family I will not cede to anyone. If I lived in an area where little monsters weren't collecting "hood tax" or if I didn't get a notice about some sexual predator that is homeless & roaming my streets, I would gladly not carry my gun, but I do. Good people don't like to fight, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't know how.
To a simplistic individual, it is that simple Petey.
Our most fundamental right is to defend ourselves. I do not think a school shooter would be deterred, for they are mentally disturbed and obviously do not think of things rationally. However, the point of these bills is that a campus will no longer resemble a shooting range. Instead of having sitting ducks, the school shooter might be encountered with an armed citizen, who will hopefully blow their brains out and spare the lives of others.
Funny DC has one of the highest crime rates and the strictest gun laws. I realize this is a simplistic view that does not take into account poverty and other measures, but there is a connection.
Seriously, think about it. Would a criminal go after an armed citizen or an unarmed one? How in the world can a woman defend herself if attacked? Should she fight with her fists?
As I have repeated ad nauseum, I urge everyone to read "More Guns, Less Violence."
Also, to rebut Petey's idiotic ideas...
States that have introduced CCW laws have virtually all seen a reduction in violent crime.
I reiterate that strict background checks are necessary and those individuals who have a history of mental illness should not have the right to bear arms.
We should be sure to note that studies that show a statistical correlation between CCW laws and reduction in violent crime are hotly contested. In particular, the study conducted by John Lott has been critiqued for having a flawed methodology by numerous researchers. Furthermore, the declines in violent crime statistics for states with both strict and lax CCW laws, which the study does find, should be set in the context of overall declines in violent crimes nationally. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but just want to point out that the argument is not so simple on either side of the debate.
The only dissenters from Lott's book I have seen are the anti-gun establishment. I have seen their complaints and also have seen Lott explain where their arguments go astray.
His updated version from 2002 explains.
It just makes me laugh when I think about the fact that when the Ohio legislature wrote the conceal and carry law, one of the first places they said you cannot bring a gun is government buildings, including the Ohio Statehouse. The building where they passed the law should be the first place citizens should be allowed to carry a gun.
Kevin, good point. I have not read the study you referenced, but I have read similar articles. I am always skeptical of studies that try to draw correlations between a hypothesis and conclusion as if they happen in a vacuum with no other variables in play. I often think about that as I read academic articles, even though they try to account for that in the research design. There are so many factors that could cause a change in a crime rate. For example, there could have been a drop in the crime rate in Akron once the CCW law was passed. There could be a study that concludes that a more armed citizenry lead to a reduction in crime. The reality could be that the reduction in crime was actually caused by pharmacies taking Sudafed off the shelves and putting it behind the counter which caused the meth community in Akron to move elsewhere and stop shooting people.
In response to both Silent M (which I think sounds kind of like a cool band name, by the way) and Kyle, to Lott's credit he does point out that there could be other contributing factors to the reduction in violent crime that he does not take into account (I'm not sure if this is from his 2002 update or not). And, admittedly, many of his skeptics are from the gun control establishment (although some are independent researchers at universities). I guess the point is, as Kyle mentions, that I am skeptical of both sides of an argument that supposedly relies on scientific or statistical analysis when there is a clear agenda backing their work.
That said, from a personal standpoint, I think I would be less inclined to teach at a university that allowed students to carry concealed weapons...debates in class and during office hours can get pretty heated, and I would hate for students (or myself for that matter!) to hold back for fear of their fellow students.
Sophie,
I saw an article on this on either CNN or the New York Times website -- the bill limits the people who can carry to people who are trained by the military or who are law enforcement officers.
I think the original bill allowed anyone with a CCW permit to carry on college campuses, but the bill was amended to its current version.
I think it's important to note that under Ohio law, it is illegal for people other than law enforcement officers to carry concealed weapons on college campuses -- even if they have a concealed weapon permit.
Adam-
Good point. I read that and should have clarified my statement that students with "specialized training" can carry handguns.
Kevin, Kyle & Silent M.,
In researching this story, I tried to find what I thought was an unbiased statistical study to support or thwart my theory that more guns = more violence. I gave up after about 1/2 hour. I definitely want to read More Guns, Less Violence b/c I have such a hard time believing that such a result (less violence) is true.
I've always thought "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" is pretty crystal clear. The USSC will corrctly interperet this language, and scrap DC's gun law, which by th eway, regulates arms besides handguns as well. You cannot possess any loaded fireamr in DC at anytime, not even if you just loaded it because you are in danger.
I have a basic question: where would a college kid carry a gun? Holsters?
Some website has a spoof iGun. Funny.
Kevin,
I feel your fears about teaching at a school that allowed ccw would be unfounded. The fear you expressed is similar to the fear many anti-ccw's possessed in regards to road rage. There has not been one example of a ccw being illegally used in a road rage incident.
San Diego officer involved in apparent road-rage shooting of mother, child
http://www.northcountytimes.com/articles/2008/03/17/news/coastal/oceanside/29_00_303_17_08.txt
Sophie and all, somehwhere in TCS archives is an extensive thread that attempted to determine if citizens carrying guns affect crime rates to any degree.
The conclusion was IN conclusive--Either way. I think Jeff and I went around the barn on this one. Remember?
I will leave you with this thought: Immediately following Ohio's CCW law, Nearly every business or institution posted a NO GUNS OR WEAPONS poster in their entrance. Yesterday, I even saw one displayed prominently at the entrance to the Brook Park safety center. Does anyone get the feeling of uneasyness being near someone who in packing? Also , police all over the state retrained to deal with the possibility of many more CCW's which, they felt, may pose a threat to the police.
Silent Majority - I have refrained from calling names of late...You call me simplistic & idiotic - Keep it up & display your true colors. Have you ever carried a gun? Have you ever pointed it at someone? Have you ever shot someone?
Get real! and rack your brain with some consideration for the gravity of the three above questions.
You may then have some respect for someone like me who has seen many gunshot wounds and pitches for less (ideally) violence.
"There has not been one example of a ccw being illegally used in a road rage incident."
How about this article from GUN GUYS?
http://www.gunguys.com/?p=675
It is a simple matter of posting enough signs and assuring that all people have an adequate education so they can understand the no gun posters.
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